Transcript [00:00] - The Viking longships could average 70 to 120 miles a day. [00:04] They could hit a place, raid it, drag off whoever they [00:07] wanted, and get away before you could get your army there. [00:11] That's just absolutely terrifying. [00:13] - What do you think it felt like for Alcuin and the [00:17] monks to see the Viking ships on the horizon? [00:21] - Honestly, I think it's the end of the world, and I don't think they were wrong to think [00:25] that. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle says the night before [00:28] Lindisfarne, the monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the [00:32] shape of dragons, and this obviously meant to foreshadow the dragon [00:36] ships coming up. But if you were brave, then you got [00:40] taken to the House of the Dead, which was Valhalla. Every day you would [00:44] fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night, and then the [00:48] next morning, you'd get up and do it again, so you're essentially practicing for [00:51] Ragnarok, the final battle. You know, there's this poem [00:55] by Tennyson, Ulysses, my favorite poem. I think it [00:59] captures the Viking spirit. The last line of it is to strive, "To seek, to [01:03] find, and not to yield." I think that's very much like the Viking, [01:07] you know, my purpose holds, to sail beyond the baths of all the Western stars until I die. [01:12] We may die, but I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna yield. [01:17] - The following is a conversation with Lars Brownworth, a [01:21] historian and author of many excellent history books, including The [01:25] Sea Wolves: A History of the Vikings and The Normans: From Raiders to Kings. [01:32] He's also the host of two history podcast series. The [01:36] first called 12 Byzantine Rulers: The History [01:40] of the Byzantine Empire is one of the first, if not [01:44] the first ever, history podcasts launched over 20 [01:48] years ago in June, 2005. His second [01:51] series, Norman Centuries, explores the remarkable [01:55] rise of the Normans from Viking raiders to the rulers of [01:59] kingdoms stretching from England to Sicily. [02:03] In this conversation, we focus primarily on the Vikings, the [02:07] seafaring Norse warriors and explorers who, over a [02:11] period of just 300 years, reshaped the medieval [02:15] world and the trajectory of Western civilization as we know it. [02:20] This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors [02:24] in the description where you can also find links to contact [02:28] me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. [02:32] And now, dear friends, here's Lars Brownworth. [02:37] Your writing and podcasts take us from the Vikings to the Normans to Crusades, [02:44] to the collapse of the East Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. [02:50] There's a thread, I think, that connects the Vikings through all of it, so let's [02:54] start at the beginning. Let's start with the Vikings. [02:58] So the age of the Vikings was intense and violent, [03:03] as you write about, often dated from 793 AD to 1066 AD. [03:09] It lasted less than three centuries. So the start is often dated to June 8th, [03:17] 793. What happened on June 8th, 793? [03:23] - In June of 793, a group of Vikings, probably originating from Norway, arrived [03:31] at the Holy Island of Lindisfarne, which was a monastic community, and they [03:34] essentially slaughtered everyone, burned a couple of buildings and [03:38] grabbed everything that had any value and left. And that was the [03:42] first Viking raid that came in force. And I do [03:46] think Lindisfarne is a good beginning date because the terror that [03:50] it brought really signified what was to come for the next two to three centuries. [03:55] - So the word of it has spread. [03:57] Like there's a bunch of accounts, like the monk Alcuin wrote about this [04:01] event in a letter to King Ethelred of Northumbria, quote, "It is nearly 350 [04:09] years that we and our fathers have inhabited this most [04:13] lovely land, and never before has such terror [04:17] appeared in Britain as we have now suffered from a pagan [04:21] race, nor was it thought that such an inroad from the sea could be made." [04:27] What made this race so psychologically devastating to this monk and to the [04:31] many other monks on the island and then to all of Britain? [04:36] - That's a great quote. Um, Alcuin was not just a [04:40] regular scholar, he was Charlemagne's favorite scholar [04:44] and he's largely responsible, as much as one person can be, for the [04:48] Carolingian Renaissance that had done so much to elevate the early medieval world. [04:52] In fact, the spaces we have, the punctuation we have, spaces [04:56] between words are likely a result of Alcuin's [05:00] work. He was an extremely literate man, and you can hear the terror [05:04] creeping into that. Um, and part of that has to do with monastic [05:09] communities, the Church and the- what they [05:13] thought a monastic community was. So the Church was viewed as a sacred [05:17] place. Everyone in Europe, everyone in quotes, is [05:21] nominally Christian, and the Church is an area of safety. It's a [05:25] literal ark from the troubles of the world that you can flee to. I believe [05:29] there are even rules in England, for example, that if you had killed [05:32] someone, you could flee to a church and the civil authorities were [05:36] not allowed to enter for up to 40 days. So you could have sanctuary [05:40] there. And to violate this would've been the worst [05:44] possible offense you could have given, which is why, you know, Thomas [05:47] Becket's murder is so, so horrible in England. And the [05:51] monks had dedicated themselves to a life of studying the Bible, [05:55] to copying scriptures to prayer, to removing themselves [05:59] literally from the temptations of the world. And so they would seek [06:03] monasteries that were remote, and the most remote locations you could [06:07] find were islands in the North Atlantic, because it's just so [06:11] difficult to get there.... So the ocean was considered a place of [06:15] safety. Not sailing on the ocean, but these islands were [06:19] literal havens of peace and security and closeness to God. [06:25] And so the fact that the Vikings hit this place of all places you could hit was [06:29] the worst, the most terrifying kind of offense against medieval sensibilities. [06:33] - So there's a kind of line that you understand you don't cross. Like, everybody [06:37] agrees. [06:38] - That's right. [06:38] - It's the kind of thing that there's a social contract that most societies, most civilizations [06:42] sign. There's a line that we don't cross. Let the scholars [06:46] do their scholarly work. That's one line. The other [06:49] line is more kind of from a military perspective, from a, [06:54] Mobility perspective, you just assume the sea is not a [06:58] place from which a threat could come- [07:00] - Yeah, that's exactly right [07:00] - ... especially the north. So your conception of the world is shattered [07:06] by, one, the brutality that can come, two, that [07:10] the sea can bring a threat, and three, that you don't give a [07:14] damn about any of the lines that we as a society, as a Christian [07:18] society, have established. [07:20] - That's exactly right. I mean, even Alcuin, I think he writes a little later on that [07:24] the dead were left as dung in the streets. So he's describing dead monks as [07:28] literal dung in the streets. And, you know, who would do this to men of God? [07:33] Inhuman monsters. [07:34] - So who were they, the Vikings, coming from the north? How did they think [07:41] of the violence that they were doing? [07:42] - Now, that's a very good question because... and it brings up a central problem, [07:46] of looking at the Vikings, which is the story is almost always told from [07:50] somebody else's perspective largely from the pens of those they're attacking. [07:55] So they're not gonna come across well. Um, they're often portrayed as demonic and [08:01] inhuman. The Vikings themselves though, as much as we can piece [08:05] together from archeology, from the stories they wrote [08:09] later but that was another problem there, the written alphabet, the runes. [08:12] It was mostly used for spells, naming your sword, things like that, cursing [08:16] someone, but it wasn't really useful for writing long poetry or literature. So the [08:22] only Norse literature we have comes at the end of the age when they had [08:26] adopted the Latin alphabet. [08:29] So it's... you can almost never see the Vikings in their own words as they [08:33] saw themselves. But we can piece certain things together. Most importantly, [08:39] Viking was not their day job. They were [08:43] were mostly merchants and farmers, mostly farmers who lived [08:47] in little bays called Viks in Old Norse, which is probably [08:51] where we get the word Viking from. Um, [08:56] one other note about how hard it is to- to tease apart what's happening here is the- [09:03] the English and the Frankish and the Irish writers all [09:06] call them Danes, no matter where they came from. They didn't stop to ask, "Now, excuse me, [09:10] are you from Norway, or are you from..." So they're all called Danes or [09:14] Pagans, heathen, or Northmen. Um, [09:18] so this is not very helpful in figuring out where they came from. [09:22] Um, the language was interchangeable. You know, Old Norse was spoken in all three of [09:26] those Scandinavian countries. But [09:29] living in the north, so far up near the Arctic Circle, [09:33] is... that's at the very limit of where technology of the time could allow humans to survive. [09:37] And that kinda, that kinda harsh climate bred, I think, very [09:41] hard people. Mercy was not a quality they seemed to [09:46] favor, value. There's a very famous story of a Swedish [09:50] Viking putting a sword in the crib of his newborn [09:54] son, and saying, "May you have nothing in this life but what you can gain with this." [09:58] I mean, I can't imagine doing that. [10:01] You know, to any of my children, you know, putting a gun in the crib, or- [10:05] ... you know, I'd be carted away. But the... I think that kind of [10:09] underscores the kind of violent life that was... you could [10:13] expect as a Viking. I mean, strength was valued more than anything else. [10:17] - So the understanding of the world is harsh, [10:20] and that strength is the way you must face that [10:24] world. So when you have those people, and especially the ones that self-select [10:28] to get on a boat, to face the ocean with all the uncertainty, [10:32] that results in the kind of brutality that we got to see. [10:35] - I think so. I mean, the way they would build their ships, they were clinker built, so they were [10:39] overlaid, like planks overlaying. So they were undecked as [10:42] well. And so they'd have tents. So can you imagine crossing the Atlantic, [10:47] the northern Atlantic, you know, with these huge waves splashing [10:50] over with an inch of oak between you and the ocean? [10:55] I mean, the amount of bravery that must have taken to undergo is [10:59] astounding. Plus they didn't have a compass. They navigated by, [11:04] "Where's the sun? Where are the stars? What... are there birds in the sky? Do [11:08] I see a different color of water? Do I see leaves floating?" I mean, it's terrible. [11:12] If you're traveling 2,000 miles, that's not great. [11:15] So it's kind of an intrepidness to them that [11:20] I think is part of the reason why they're so fascinating to us in our sanitized, [11:24] more or less sanitized world. That this incredible courage to do this, [11:30] and some horror at what they did on the other end when they arrived. [11:34] But, you know, we'll talk a little bit more about their religion, but they- [11:38] they do not view the Christian God [11:41] in particularly flattering terms. I mean, to them, he's a weak [11:44] God who won't protect his adherence, and they can just come in and plunder as [11:48] they... I mean, they'll... One Viking famously says, "On land, I'm a Christian. [11:54] When I'm on the sea, I worship Thor." [11:56] It was very much the kind of pragmatic take that the Vikings had. [12:01] - Yeah. There are gods, and they have many, but Odin and Thor are [12:05] pretty hardcore gods. So everything, just [12:09] their whole philosophy on life is pretty- pretty hardcore. [12:12] Probably some of the toughest humans to have ever lived. [12:15] - I think so. Yeah. I mean, their gods are horrifying. They're [12:19] polytheistic. There was no universally accepted, Head god. [12:26] I think Marvel has also led people astray in this. [12:29] - Well, we'll talk more about, [12:33] religion, but since you mentioned the boats, what- what do we understand about the technology that they [12:36] were using? Can you just speak a little bit more to this one inch of oak [12:41] idea? So, these were these long ships that, [12:48] Were also able to travel on rivers. So they're [12:52] not... Like, what- what is structurally, do we know about the boats that [12:56] allowed them to be so flexible in terms of where they can travel? [13:01] - Yeah. I mean, and this was the Vikings' great secret, and I think it's [13:03] underappreciated. They built different types of ships, obviously for different [13:07] purposes, but the thing that blows my mind is that they [13:11] built these ships that could cross an ocean, cross the Atlantic [13:14] Ocean, and at the same time, when they had a [13:18] draft of less than two feet, so they could sail up [13:22] rivers that were two feet deep. And if they came to an, you know, a [13:26] block or something, 20 men could pick up the ship and port it around. They were [13:31] incredibly portable and their speed, the speed was the [13:35] most frightening thing about the Vikings. [13:38] - So the... These are the same kind of ship that they sailed the ocean on. [13:41] - Yeah. I mean, it's insane. [13:44] - So they're pretty sufficiently robust to handle the ocean and sufficiently [13:51] mobile to travel on rivers and do so really fast, so- [13:57] ... you mentioned speed. That seems to be, [13:59] from a military perspective, the great advantage of the Vikings- [14:02] ... because they can move much faster than the land armies can. [14:08] So, and not just the element of surprise, which they often had, but the [14:12] element of speed was the thing that gave them such an extreme advantage [14:15] against the British armies. [14:17] - That was the big one. So, an English army, if it had [14:21] access to a good Roman road that was well maintained, which frankly there weren't tons [14:25] of them, but they could average something like 10 to 15 miles per day- [14:29] ... on a good day, if they didn't have a large baggage train to slow them down. If you had a [14:32] cavalry unit that didn't have to travel with the army, they could [14:36] average about 20 miles a day. The Viking long ships could average [14:40] 70 to 120 miles a day. So, they're just moving in [14:44] super fast motion. They could hit a place, raid it, [14:48] drag off whoever they wanted, and get away before you could get your army there. [14:53] That's just absolutely terrifying. [14:56] - What do you think it felt like for Alcuin [14:59] and the monks to see the Viking ships on the horizon? [15:03] Do you ever think about trying to put yourself in the mind of those folks [15:08] and imagining... [15:10] In that time, you don't have a full map of the world, right? And the [15:14] oceans are not mapped, and you have [15:17] a hazy conception of the world. And so out of the darkness from the [15:21] ocean where you thought nothing can come, comes this terrifying, this brutal force. [15:28] What do you think that felt like? [15:30] - Honestly, I think it's the end of the world, and I don't think [15:34] that's... I don't think they were wrong to think that. The Anglo-Saxon [15:38] Chronicle says the night before Lindisfarne, the [15:42] monks saw sheets of lightning in the sky in the shape of dragons. And this [15:46] obviously meant to, you know, foreshadow the dragon ships coming up. [15:51] I can't imagine the horror. It would shake my faith, I'm sure, to have these- [15:58] these giant men jumping out of their ships with swords raised. And you're... What [16:02] do you have? Your cross? [16:04] - Were the Vikings aware of the fear that they had caused? [16:08] So, did they use fear as a kind of weapon, or was this just a [16:15] side consequence of their actions, or did they understand and [16:18] use it? Like the Mongols, Genghis Khan, the Mongols used the fear and the [16:22] terror on purpose- [16:25] ... to increase the chance that they wouldn't have to avoid fights, basically. [16:29] - Yeah, yeah. The Vikings absolutely used terror. It was a main [16:33] weapon in their arsenal. They would attack [16:37] specifically on high holy days like Easter, Christmas, [16:41] because they knew there'd be higher value targets there with richer clothing, richer [16:45] offerings. There'd be a lot of money available. So they were rather [16:49] sophisticated, which I think is something also that they don't get much [16:52] credit for. It's like they were just dumb brutes attacking and just [16:56] destroying. But they were... It was very sophisticated. They would show up. [16:59] That's what I mean when I say Viking wasn't their day jobs. They would be [17:03] traders in say an English port, kind of looking [17:07] around. They'd get everyone's schedule, then they would sail away and [17:11] come back as Vikings, and they knew exactly where to go. They knew where all the [17:15] money was held. They knew where all the, you know, the churches were, when to [17:18] attack. They knew the entire Christian calendar. They knew when someone's [17:22] baptism was, when someone's confirmation. I mean, they were aware of all of this. [17:27] And they would... They would definitely attack to increase terror. [17:32] - One of the signs of the intelligence [17:36] of the Vikings is that the Viking Age is so short. [17:40] So what happens is these explorers and these Rough men who do the raids, they [17:49] very quickly are good at conquering and then start state [17:52] building, or conquering and then establishing trade [17:56] routes and stop being the quote, unquote, "Vikings." So [18:00] basically, they just... They conquer, and then they start doing [18:04] the usual instit- build the institutions, start a state, [18:08] and now they're normal kind of nation, [18:11] civilization kind of thing. So this kind of force that is [18:15] the conquering, raid, violent, intense explorers, it's like a [18:22] short-lasting thing, a couple of generations at most. [18:25] - Yeah, that's right. I mean, the Vikings were ultimately a pragmatic [18:29] people who, if it worked, they would keep it, [18:33] which is frustrating because they disappear so quickly because of that. [18:38] - With very little trace in the records- [18:40] - With very little trace. That's right. [18:41] - ... with very little writing. [18:42] - That's right. [18:44] - No time for writing it down. [18:46] - No. Yes. Not doing that. [18:48] - Yeah. Why were monasteries such good targets for these early raids? [18:56] - This is where I imagine myself as a Viking and one of my ancestors perhaps. [19:01] And sailing in... I mean, they must have thought they had won the lottery. [19:06] You got this rich, these rich buildings, rich gold everywhere. [19:11] Decorated books, jewels, all guarded by old men who [19:15] don't know how to fight. You just take it. [19:17] - I mean, we should make clear that the monasteries had... They were used as almost like [19:21] storage for gold. [19:24] - Yeah. And this goes all the way back to, you know, the Roman Empire where, you know, [19:28] think of, for example, the Emperor Augustus. When he was writing his will, he put it in [19:32] the Temple of the Vestal Virgins as well as Mark Antony and [19:36] Cleopatra. They'd all done that because there's this [19:39] additional protection of religion- [19:41] ... and this taboo against violating that. And the same thing happened [19:45] when Europe was Christianized. Monasteries were... I mean, rich people, [19:51] their faith had to be an active faith. They couldn't just say their [19:55] prayers and go to church on Sunday. They would have to do something to publicly [19:59] show that they were, you know, worthy of forgiveness or, or whatever. [20:03] And so they would donate huge sums to the church. I [20:07] think, you know, by the time of the French Revolution, which is obviously way in the future, [20:11] the Church is the largest single landowner in France. I mean, the monasteries [20:15] where... These, these monasteries filled with monks who had taken vows of poverty [20:20] were some of the richest places in Europe. It's kind of a strange dichotomy here. [20:25] - And then we should also say that the Vikings, many of them pragmatic people, so a [20:29] lot of them would eventually then convert to Christianity, so you get- [20:33] - That's right [20:33] - ... you integrate yourself into the system. [20:35] - That's right. [20:36] - In some sense, religion [20:38] creates this backbone of a society that stabilizes it, and then you create a [20:42] bunch of rules about behavior, how you're supposed to behave. One of the rules [20:46] is you don't mess with the church buildings and- [20:49] - That's right [20:49] - ... the religious- [20:50] ... institutions and therefore they become great storage places for gold. [20:54] - That's right. [20:55] - And then the Vikings here just test the system. [20:59] Uh, I mean, it's the fortune of geography for them [21:04] and the fortune of their way of life, [21:07] To be able to raid, to become extremely rich and therefore this... It [21:11] both spreads the terror across England, [21:14] and the message across Scandinavia that there's a lot [21:18] of riches to be had. And so the raids, that's why there's an explosion of raids. [21:23] - That's right. And I think it's not a coincidence that it happens when it [21:27] does. I mean, you have both... So there's two main theories about why the Viking Age starts. [21:31] The first, Will Durant puts it, I think, the best. He says, "The fertility of the [21:34] Viking women outstripped the fertility of the Viking land." It's [21:38] basically overpopulation. [21:41] Um, and then they're searching for food. And then the second [21:46] is there's this technological breakthrough with the keel and maybe pressure [21:49] put on Charlemagne's consolidation and a little worries like that. [21:54] I don't see why both can't be true but I do, [21:59] I do also think Europe... Like, Charlemagne puts together this vast empire that, [22:06] you know, fairly approximates the Western Roman Empire. If you squint- [22:09] ... it looks like the Western Roman Empire. He's calling himself, [22:13] The new Roman emperor. This will eventually [22:17] mutate into the Holy Roman Empire. But it's very [22:20] much this idea that it's back. The Roman Empire is back. [22:24] He's crowned on Christmas Day in the year 800, and the empire is [22:27] back. Unfortunately, it was sprawling. It hadn't been thought through. There was... [22:35] The communication was terrible. You just couldn't do it. And so it [22:39] was wealthy and weak, and that kind of attracts predators. [22:45] By the time the Vikings crash into it, you also have the added bonus for them of [22:49] really feckless rulers. [22:52] - And we should say, going to Perplexity here, that Charlemagne, also known as [22:55] Charles the Great, is the Frankish king who became [22:59] emperor in 800 and ruled much of the Western and Central [23:03] Europe in the late eighth and early ninth centuries. And, [23:08] There's a theory that the Viking Age was also a [23:12] reaction to the South expanding north, as you're talking about. [23:16] You tell the story of Charlemagne weeping because he foresaw the [23:19] evil his descendants would suffer. Did the [23:23] Franks accidentally wake the sleeping giant by crushing the Saxons and removing [23:27] the buffer zone between them and the Vikings? [23:31] - I'm sure that had something to do with it. But yeah, as power was [23:34] consolidated throughout specifically Central Europe it did put a little [23:41] pressure on the areas of Denmark. And those are the areas that first kind of [23:47] erupt down toward, [23:49] um... Norway and Denmark contribute most of the early Vikings that [23:53] hit the Franks. And the Frankish Empire [23:57] is the most wealthy state in Europe. It's poured money [24:01] into religious houses for the reasons you [24:04] outlined. And all sitting there, easy pickings for people who've just [24:08] developed the keel. [24:10] - And so the word of the raids sent terror through, [24:14] through England and through Europe. [24:18] How much of the raids were reconnaissance, and how [24:21] much was it just raids, and how much was it preparing for greater scale? [24:29] - That's a good... That's a really good question. I think a lot [24:33] of the early raids are probing raids, to see what's there. [24:37] Um, definitely when Ragnar Lothbrok, for example, sacks Paris in 845, [24:45] that definitely results in waves of Viking attacks throughout the 860s, [24:51] trying to copy that. And he actually is the template which [24:55] everyone wants to follow. And so that provokes large-scale [24:59] invasions. And they hit England. They kind of [25:02] switch off. When France is pretty much exhausted, they switch over to England, and then when [25:07] England is pretty much conquered, they switch back to France. [25:11] So I think a lot of these are just probing raids at first, but they're proof of [25:14] concept and then they come in force. For example, there was one [25:18] king in England, his name was Ethelred the Unready, which is a [25:22] pretty funny... Pun on his name. But he paid, in one year, [25:29] 7.5 million silver pennies to the Vikings to get them to go away, which [25:32] is a bit like someone's mugging you, so you pay them more money so they'll go away. [25:36] It's- [25:36] - That's not gonna work, is it? [25:37] - It's not gonna work, but it will bring more muggers. Um, so [25:42] he paid the equivalent of 50 adult elephants, 48,000 pounds of silver, [25:49] to get the muggers to go away. And it's unsurprising that throughout the [25:53] course of his reign, he paid something like [25:56] 20 tons of gold and silver, which he had to tax his people for. [26:02] - Um, yeah, the Vikings are not the kind of people that would make go away, right? [26:07] - Nope. That's not gonna happen. [26:08] - Yeah, they would just come back in force. [26:10] - Yeah, they trust silver to do the work of swords. [26:14] - Uh, you mentioned Ragnar Lothbrok. Who was Ragnar Lothbrok? Did he actually exist? [26:21] Some people believe he's a composite from several real ninth century [26:25] Viking leaders, versus an actual singular human. [26:30] - Yeah, I'm a romantic. I would like to believe he existed. Um, I [26:34] think probably he's a compilation of a lot [26:39] of different... There probably is a seed of [26:42] truth there. There probably was someone named Ragnar. [26:46] The last name's a little suspicious. Lothbrok means hairy [26:49] breeches. He supposedly had magic pants that would prevent him from being poisoned [26:53] by dragons or snakes. That's maybe a clue. We're dealing with myth here. But he [27:00] is really the template for Vikings. You want to figure out, like, what the Vikings [27:03] wanted, who's their success story, it's Ragnar Lothbrok. He's born Norway, [27:10] Denmark, countries argue over that. Maybe Sweden. Some sagas say he's in Uppsala. [27:17] Anyway, he is, you know, penniless, and when he is [27:21] in his late teens or early 20s, he decides to invade, sail up the Seine. Uh, [27:29] there is a well-known city on the Seine and he raids it. [27:33] Supposedly, he takes the hinge of one of the gates from Paris to [27:37] prove that he's been there. The- the [27:41] Frankish king, I love the Frankish kings because they- [27:45] their citizens give them names based on how much they hate them. [27:49] So you have- you have Charles the Great, right? Charles the Great, Charlemagne. [27:54] He's followed by Louis the Pious. That's probably the best one. [27:57] And Louis the Pious is followed by Charles the Fat- [28:01] ... who's followed by Charles the Bald- [28:04] ... who's followed by Charles the Simple or Stupid. [28:06] - Nice. So you can trust the names- [28:08] - You can trust— [28:09] - to give you the TLDR of how good of a ruler they were. [28:12] - Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. [28:14] - So Charles the Great, widely acknowledged as sort of one of [28:18] the great leaders of the Frankish Empire- ... aka Charlemagne. [28:22] Uh, so what else do we know about him? So, there's [28:27] going to Perplexity, "Ragnar's portrayed as a Scandinavian warlord, often [28:31] called a Danish or Swedish king," like you mentioned. [28:36] Uh, "Active in the ninth century during the height of the Viking raids." [28:41] And then descriptions of the raids and the exploits. [28:45] "Medieval traditions link Ragnar to famous raids on the Frankish realms, [28:49] especially the attack on Paris in 845, where he [28:55] reputedly sails up the Seine and extorts a huge ransom from King Charles the [29:03] Bald." He's also associated with repeated attacks on [29:06] Anglo-Saxon England, embodying the archetypal Viking [29:10] chieftain, charismatic, brutal, and focused on wealth, fame, and honor in battle. [29:18] So that, those are the ideals of the Vikings. Charisma, brutality- [29:22] ... and focusing on wealth, fame, and honor, especially honor in battle. [29:27] - Then also, [29:28] what does he do with it, right? What does he do with it? So, he gets about 7,000 pounds of [29:32] silver from Charles the Bald, which destroys, essentially destroys Charles the Bald's [29:36] kingship. But he goes back home to [29:40] Denmark, and the Danish king doesn't want him around, [29:43] because he's too powerful, he's too rich. He's a ring [29:47] giver. You know, think Beowulf here, right? He's got this [29:51] large personal army which wants to join him for ad- he can do, you [29:55] know, they'll follow him, and he is a threat, and so he kind of is [29:59] encouraged to go elsewhere. He ends up raiding England for something like [30:03] 15 years, and then there's a, [30:05] probably the most famous bit of the story is he's shipwrecked, and King [30:09] Aella of Northumberland captures him and decides to [30:13] kill him by throwing him into a pit with vipers. [30:17] They throw him in this and the snakes are biting him, but he's got his hairy breeches on, so [30:22] it's not working. So, he's singing a hymn to Odin [30:26] and he gets pulled out and he's asked why he's not dying [30:30] and he explains, rather foolishly, that he has these hairy breeches. So, they take the [30:33] pants off and throw him back, and his last words are, [30:38] um, "When the boar bleats, the piglets come."... by which [30:42] he means, "My s- I have sons," he had 12 of them, "and they [30:46] will avenge me." And they do, they lead the the Great [30:50] Heathen Army to invade and eventually conquer [30:53] England. Aella, fun fact, not so fun for him, [30:57] is the, supposedly was captured by the son of Ragnar, his [31:01] name is Ivar the Boneless, which is somewhat terrifying of a name. And he is, [31:05] he's the first person that a blood eagle was performed on. [31:09] - What's the blood eagle? [31:10] - It's when they remove the lungs, they, while you're still alive, they cut you [31:14] open and remove the lungs and put the lungs on your back. [31:18] And then when you try to breathe, they flutter like wings, so it's called, like [31:22] an eagle. It's called the blood eagle. [31:24] - That is horrible. [31:24] - It's disgusting, yes. And this is what Aella, you know, deserves, [31:28] according to, you know, Bjorn Ironside and Ivar the [31:32] Boneless, the sons of Ragnar. Like, this is what they get. [31:35] - Offense. [31:35] - This is the piglets coming- [31:38] ... to their own boar, you know? One last thing about Ragnar, [31:44] is his wife is also an important part. He had [31:47] something like 12 sons, the accounts differ, and probably [31:51] three marriages. But his most famous wife was named Aslaug, [31:55] and she fell in love with him. He was on a ship, he was passing through, so- [32:01] ... kind of a glamorous sea king, right? With his, he's living the [32:04] dream. And she sees him and she wants to be married to him, and he says no. [32:10] He says, 'cause he wants a clever wife, and so he says, "If you can [32:14] accomplish these three things, you can marry me. So tomorrow, I'll be here [32:18] tonight, and then tomorrow, I want you to come to my ship. I want you [32:24] to have no clothes on- [32:26] ... but not be naked. I want you to have not eaten a meal, but [32:33] not have fasted. And I want you to come without a companion, but not alone." [32:38] And so she shows up [32:40] with a dog. She doesn't have a companion, but she's not alone. She's taken a [32:44] bite out of an onion, so she's eaten. She hasn't fasted, but she hasn't had a meal. [32:49] And then she has very long hair, and so she's using the hair to cover [32:53] herself. So she has no clothes- [32:54] - Oh, she shows up naked, but she's- [32:56] - ... but clothed. [32:57] - Right. Wow. [32:58] - Yeah, so in this, so this is kind of the cleverness that would be expected of a, [33:02] of a Viking woman. So they're well matched, they're like the ideal couple. [33:06] And then they have 12 kids, 12 sons. Not just 12 kids, 12 sons. [33:10] - And many of them end up... [33:11] - Many of them end up almost as famous as their father. [33:14] - Ivar the Boneless. Uh, Bjorn Ironside, and many others. These sons [33:20] later appear as leaders of major Viking forces in England, particularly [33:24] the so-called Great Heathen Army- ... that invades in 865. [33:28] - And they are historical. They are, I mean, there's no, these were the [33:32] names of Vikings who attacked and conquered England. [33:36] They end up attacking Islamic Spain. They go all over Europe. [33:41] - Well, for them, it sounds like glory in battle is really important. [33:45] - That's right, yeah. [33:46] - And so it's not even- It's just part of the culture, it's part- [33:49] - That's right [33:49] - ... the honor culture. [33:50] - Men die, but names live forever. [33:53] - Uh, as a small aside, since Ragnar is the star of the Vikings TV [34:01] series, I don't know if you've gotten a chance to watch any of it. [34:04] Is there any accuracy to it? [34:08] - I think it's well done. My one quibble, Ragnar's brother [34:13] is Rollo in the show, right? [34:16] They weren't brothers. In fact, by some accounts, they were born 80 years apart. [34:22] But as a storytelling device, I applaud that. [34:25] - Yeah, they basically take all the main Vikings and put them all together. [34:30] Just so it's a- [34:31] - I mean, I get it. I get it, it's confusing. Honestly, in writing a book about it, the [34:34] hardest part was coming up with an organizational scheme. Like, what's the [34:38] overarching thing that links them together? [34:40] - Well, there's certainly an overarching thing, but we don't have [34:44] information about it. This is, the problem is we get to see just slivers of the [34:51] information- [34:52] - That's right, that's right [34:52] - ... from the raids. There might be just this rich history that we know [34:56] nothing about. Like where did this warrior culture come from? [35:00] Like, what was the evolution of these ideas of honor and battle? I mean, maybe it's [35:08] being overly romantic, but you can imagine the ideals of battle from the Roman [35:15] Empire, from the Roman Republic and the early imperial period [35:20] coming up north to Scandinavia. And we just know very little traces about that. [35:26] - Yeah. Even the name Scandinavia is from a Roman author. [35:30] I mean, they thought it was an island. They thought Scandinavia was an island with one tribe, [35:34] the Scandia tribe, but you know, close enough. [35:39] - And uh, who was the, what was in this Great Heathen Army [35:46] that invaded England in 865? What can we say about that? [35:51] - Well, there's this famous scene in the Viking siege of Paris in 845, which [35:55] is really the Europeans' introduction, or Europe as a whole, [35:59] to a Viking army, not just a raid and then what it could [36:03] do. And the king, the emperor, [36:07] Charles, said, "You know, let's find out what they want and how much do [36:11] I have to pay to get them to leave?" [36:13] And so his ambassador went to a Viking and said, "Who is your king?" [36:17] And the Viking looked at him, he didn't understand, and he said, "We have no king. [36:21] We are all kings." So they're very like decentralized, tough. They only valued [36:28] leaders who could prove that they had, [36:32] they had won. You know, could give out the rings. [36:34] - So flat organization, very meritocratic. [36:37] - Yes. [36:37] - If you're good at what you do, you demonstrate that skill in [36:40] battle. That means you get to have maybe a leadership position. [36:45] - That's right. [36:45] - And the moment you're no longer effective, you don't get to have this leadership [36:48] position. We're all kings. That's gangster. Throughout [36:53] history, the Mongols, Genghis Khan was famous for this meritocracy. [36:59] - That's right. Yeah. [37:00] - That's one of the components of an extremely effective military force is if [37:03] meritocracy is prized. Same is true for who [37:09] gets to rule. How do you determine the succession? If you're [37:13] just giving it to your oldest son, that's gonna be a problem. [37:16] - Yeah. Yeah, that... I could not agree more. There are some problems with, [37:21] with meritocracy in civil war because it tends to... The only way you can find out, [37:25] like Alexander the Great, right? Who does your empire belong to? To the strongest. [37:29] That kind of guarantees the civil war. At least with giving it to your older son, [37:34] you know who's gonna be... There's an element of stability there [37:38] although you may end up with a Caligula. [37:40] More likely than not, you're gonna end up with a Caligula, I would say, human nature [37:44] being what it is. [37:47] - It's— It's... Yeah, yeah, it always converges to the asshole, and the asshole holds [37:52] power, a crazy asshole. Uh, so yeah, Great Heathen Army, 865. [37:58] - So the Great Heathen Army, they were war bands that... Each followed this guy and [38:02] this guy. [38:03] "And I'm gonna sit you down in this room. I'm gonna tell you my plan. You're gonna listen [38:07] or you're gonna push back. I'm gonna push back, and we'll just have this kind of creative [38:10] discussion and come up with a plan we all agree on." [38:13] - So it used to be relatively small Viking groups that were doing raids. [38:18] And then the Great Heathen Army is this large coalition of Viking groups- [38:23] - That's right [38:23] - ... without a real leader that [38:26] was able to somehow stabilize enough to have something like governance. [38:31] Basically, there seems to be a very rapid evolution of a Viking [38:36] in every part of the world they touch. You go explore, Raid, conquer, [38:46] establish state- ... And trade routes, and always maintaining a grand ambition, [38:55] but no longer doing the violence, and always [38:59] being sufficiently programmatic and flexible where you can accept a [39:04] conversion to Christianity, for example, if it's useful- [39:07] - That's right [39:07] - ... and then they accept the culture, accept the language. So that's why they integrate and [39:12] the thing that we think of as Viking dis- kind of dissipates and disappears pretty [39:16] quickly. [39:17] - Yeah, and I think the best example of this is France, right? So the [39:20] Vikings, which is we'll talk about this more probably with [39:24] Rollo, but, you know, the Vikings settle in France, in the North [39:28] Man's Duchy, which is shortened to Normandy. And they, within [39:32] a generation... I mean, Rollo, whose real name is Hrolf, he names his son [39:39] William. That's not a Viking name. And within a generation, [39:45] the language is gone. The Viking names are gone. The [39:49] worship of Odin is, as far as we can tell, gone. [39:53] And the Normans are building churches and marrying into the local [39:56] aristocracy in there. Their... Essentially, their Viking-ness is gone [40:00] except for one thing, their, like, incredible vitality, [40:05] which the Normans essentially conquer kingdoms at both ends of Europe, [40:09] Sicily and England, and found two of the foremost powerful [40:13] states in medieval Europe. [40:15] - Yeah, so the ambition is there. [40:17] - Is there. [40:17] - The vitality is there, but it's- [40:18] - The methods have changed. [40:20] - Yeah, and they change rapidly, which is fascinating. [40:23] So you have a book. You have a podcast series on, [40:26] The Normans, so let's talk about Rollo. Who was Rollo? [40:31] The famous Viking war leader who became the first ruler [40:36] of Normandy, Northern France. [40:38] - Well, first I should say, as someone of Norwegian descent, I'm gonna fall [40:42] down on the Norwegian side of the argument here because- [40:46] ... Norway and Denmark almost came to blows over which was the birthplace of Rollo. [40:52] But the consensus seems to be Norway- Not just biased. Um, so he was... [40:59] The only thing we... The only glimpse we get of Rollo as a young man is [41:03] he was very tall, so he's called Hrolf the Walker, Hrolf [41:06] Ganger because he was so tall he couldn't ride the little Viking ponies. So [41:10] he had to walk everywhere. But... Kinda poor probably raised on stories of [41:18] Ragnar and the other Viking lords, and he goes. He [41:22] may have participated in some of the earlier, like the 860 raids that [41:26] the Vikings did on Paris or the Seine, you know, and [41:32] then he eventually ends up plundering [41:36] the, what will become the Norman coast. And in the, in the year 911, [41:42] he makes a treaty, the Treaty of Saint-Clair-sur-Epte with [41:46] the Frankish King, Charles the Simple, which is not stupid. It's, [41:50] it's more like straightforward. There's no guile in how he talks. Uh, and [41:56] Charles makes a really interesting deal with Rollo, which is, um, "Why don't you [42:02] settle here, integrate into the local aristocracy [42:06] and defend the French coast against the Vikings?" [42:10] Which I don't know. It's like putting a burglar in charge of [42:14] your security or some- I don't know, but it works. [42:17] It works. And Rollo, by the time he makes that deal, he's probably in his [42:25] mid-fifties to mid-sixties. It's unclear [42:28] when he was born, but the point is he's lived the Viking life. He's, [42:34] he's got something like 20 or 30, if you add up all the sagas they say [42:38] that he... they gave him this many coins or whatever. He has probably 20 or [42:41] 30 tons of silver that he has acquired and then probably given out to whatever. So- [42:46] - So yeah, so he's done the full- [42:48] - He's done the thing. Yeah [42:49] - ... and then the conquering and then- [42:51] - And then the king says, "Can you settle here?" "Can I give you legitimacy?" [42:55] - So he does the diplomacy of a treaty. [42:58] ... then he does the good statecraft and state building and [43:02] then becomes, I mean, European. In one life, he goes through the full journey. [43:08] - It's... Yeah. [43:09] - And then his son, William Longsword- ... succeeded him and, uh ... [43:14] - Gets assassinated, but he does enlarge Normandy. So basically, every [43:18] ruler after Rollo enlarges Normandy until it- [43:22] it essentially becomes more powerful than the king— [43:25] ... By far. There's a wonderful scene when Rollo, [43:31] Signs the treaty. He becomes a liege lord of the French king, and there's this [43:36] great scene 'cause Rollo has to bend down and kiss the foot of the king. [43:40] So Rollo's probably, you know, he's a Norwegian Viking. He's probably, [43:45] I don't know, six foot. Charles, this little Frank, he's probably five ten. So [43:51] he's like Rollo's towering over him, [43:54] and there's a large- both armies are watching. There's a bunch of people who have [43:58] come in from the countryside. They've heard something's going on, and this important part of [44:02] this feudal ceremony, you have to kiss your lord's foot to- to, you know, [44:07] be in a subservient role. And Rollo says, "I'm not gonna do that." So he turns to one of [44:11] his guards and says, "You kiss the foot," and the guard's probably taller than he is. [44:15] So he bends down and he picks the king's foot up to his mouth- [44:19] - That's the way to do it [44:20] - ... which Charles goes falling on the back. I mean- [44:22] ... I can't think of a better example of the relationship between the Norman [44:26] dukes and the French kings. I mean, it's perfect. It's perfect. [44:29] - Oh God, I love the Vikings. [44:31] So as you've covered, and maybe you could speak to that a bit more, [44:35] for a long time to come, Normans have influence on Europe and beyond. [44:42] - Yeah, it's hard to overstate Normandy's impact on Europe in the Middle Ages. [44:49] Of course, they will go on to conquer England as well. [44:52] But Rollo, when he signs the treaty, it's an ambiguous treaty. He's given a title [45:03] which is rather ambiguous. He's not a duke, and it's not clear. [45:07] He's not an earl. He's not a duke. He's just subservient to the king. [45:10] Which means Normandy is not a duchy. It's not a [45:13] principality. It's kind of this ambiguous, no one really knows what it [45:17] is. And so Rollo, being a good Viking, and his descendants [45:21] being good Vikings, despite becoming French, they just call themselves Duke. [45:27] And they essentially seize whatever power they want. There's [45:33] one Norman duke, I think he's the grandson of Rollo. He's kidnapped by [45:37] the French king when he's 14. He escapes the captivity and kidnaps the king. [45:44] As a 14-year-old, I mean, it's just- these are- these guys are crazy. [45:50] - How far geographically and in time does the influence of the Normans [45:56] and Normandy go? So what should we understand about the impact of Normans- [46:04] ... in history? [46:05] - I'm a romantic, so I, when I read history, I usually [46:09] end up rooting for the losers. Um, I want Harold Godwinson to beat No- [46:13] William the Conqueror. You know, I want Hector to beat Achilles. Never [46:17] works, no matter how many times I read it. But [46:20] I was always interested in the Normans because of the Norman conquest of England. [46:23] And my I have a twin brother, and he asked me, we were taking a walk, and he asked me, [46:29] "How did Europe..." Uh, 'cause we, I was reading about the Dark Ages at the [46:32] time, the the early Middle Ages. "And how did Europe, this kind of backwards place, [46:36] become the dominant-" "... force in the world?" [46:42] And I started thinking about that, and my answer really is the Normans. [46:47] The Normans, that's the great change between [46:51] Europe as a backwards, inward-looking place, and Europe as a kind of [46:56] confident, outward-looking place. And that change happens under- [47:02] under the Normans. I mean, the Normans, it's not a coincidence that they- [47:05] they lead the charge in the First Crusade. [47:09] They create the state of England. If you look at England before the [47:13] Vikings arrive, there are seven, it's the Heptarchy, there are seven [47:16] kingdoms in England, and the Vikings destroyed all but one. Only [47:20] Wessex is preserved, and they've conquered about half of Wessex. [47:24] And there's a young king. What's he gonna do? [47:27] But that king is Alfred the Great, and he conquers the rest. And then his [47:30] grandson, Athelstan, is the first man called King of England, king of all Angles. [47:37] And then they do the same thing almost wherever they go. They [47:41] help create modern France by ripping apart, [47:44] uh, Charlemagne's empire, which was unwieldy. [47:47] It looked good on paper, but it was unwieldy. It was replaced by this leaner, [47:51] meaner, compact thing. They figure out how to deal with the Vikings by [47:55] essentially building fortified bridges, changes to their army, and so forth. [48:02] The Vikings, I—I like to call it creative destruction. It—they, by [48:06] destroying the things they destroyed, they cleared the ground for something [48:09] stronger to grow. [48:11] - Uh, that's brilliant. The creative destruction engine that created Europe [48:16] was the Normans and the Vikings. [48:18] And then you also, you have another book that talks about the Byzantine [48:22] Empire, so you have the creative destruction that resulted in Europe, [48:28] that Europe led to this Western, quote-unquote, civilization that we think of now. [48:34] And the thing that protected Europe for centuries [48:39] was the existence of the Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire, [48:43] because of all the threats- [48:46] - That's right. [48:47] - ... That came towards Europe. This strong, [48:52] stable empire that is the Byzantine Empire [48:56] protected the forces from everything that came from the east. [49:00] - Yeah, that's right. [49:00] - They were a buffer. [49:02] - They were a buffer, giving Europe this kind of vital time to develop the way it needed [49:06] to develop. [49:07] - So it's—it's interesting to think that the world as we see now was a result— [49:14] ... of a sequence of quite lucky geographical and [49:20] leadership decisions in history. I mean, it really does pivot on [49:26] a few points of geography and a few special leaders- ... that conquer. [49:30] - Yeah. Had Constantine chosen his side a little less wisely, [49:35] the world's going to be very different. [49:37] - Yeah, so Constantine is the guy who moved the capital of the [49:41] empire from Rome to Constantinople, thereby giving a lot more focus to the east. [49:48] Thereby protecting Europe from the gigantic threats that— [49:55] - That's right. [49:55] - ... loomed in the east. [49:56] - That's right. And the Islamic invasions of the seventh century, they couldn't [50:00] get past that choke point of Constantinople. So they had to take the long way [50:04] across Africa. You know, and by the time they get to Spain, [50:08] And conquer Spain and into, that's the Battle of Tours, [50:11] you know, Charles Martel is able to stop them, and they're, they're [50:15] massively overextended. You know, I think it's a very different story if they can come [50:19] in through the Black Sea. [50:21] - And all the times the East Roman Empire almost died from all the invasions, [50:26] all of those invaders would have just conquered the entirety of Europe. [50:31] - Yeah, I mean, I don't think they would've met much resistance. [50:34] - Yeah. So rewinding back, what was the religion, the [50:38] religious beliefs, the gods that the Vikings believed that [50:42] we've mentioned a little bit of? Thor and Odin, how did they see this, this world [50:50] and the universe? [50:51] - It's, so the Viking gods are... I mean, they've been sanitized, but they're quite [50:59] terrifying. But their basic conception of the [51:01] universe is an eternal struggle between chaos and [51:05] order, which chaos will eventually win. So I think the [51:09] best view of cosmology is of concentric circles, with [51:13] Utgard is the outer realm and that's where the chaos is. And those are the, that's [51:17] where the frost giants are, all the monsters that seek to [51:21] destroy. The gods represent order and stability, and the [51:24] monsters represent chaos, and it's an eternal war between the two of them. [51:30] Um, so there are different categories of gods depending on which circle you [51:34] come from. The gods don't all like each other. They're not... [51:38] Sometimes they engage in wars. Some of the [51:42] most famous gods, the Norse gods, you know, Loki or Freya, [51:47] come from outside the Aesir, the main gods. So it was kind of a fluid thing. [51:53] - It's more a way to understand the world. [51:55] - I think so, yeah. The thunder is [51:58] Thor fighting the ice giants, and that's what that is. [52:03] - Uh, going to Perplexity. Vikings followed the polytheistic, [52:07] ritual-heavy religion centered on a pantheon of gods and spirits with no [52:10] single holy book or unified church, and practices varied a lot by [52:14] region and family. And so the major gods were Odin and Thor and Freya. [52:21] Odin was, his domain was war, kingship, wisdom, [52:26] death. Thor was protection, thunder, fertility. Freya was love, magic, [52:32] battle dead. Um, [52:36] typical worshipers for Odin were chieftains and elite warriors and poets. [52:41] Typical worshipers for Thor were [52:45] farmers and "ordinary people," and typical worshipers of [52:49] Freya were women, magic practitioners, and lovers. [52:52] - Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've heard it... I think you can break it down saying like, Odin [52:56] was the elite. He's kind of more aristocratic, right? [52:59] - Yes. [52:59] - He's the god of poetry, you need to read, et cetera. Only the elite would know how to do [53:03] that. A farmer wouldn't really care about that. Wherein Thor is a more earthy god. [53:08] You know, you want the waves to be less, you know, pray to Thor. Um, [53:13] I find Odin, I think, most disturbing. He's the god of [53:16] madness and the god of poetry, which, I guess those are related. [53:21] - Yeah. [53:22] - Um, but in battle, I mean, the berserkers, probably the most famous type of Viking [53:26] warriors, were considered to be Odin's chosen warriors. They would show [53:30] no pain, and they'd just run at the enemy and attack with their [53:34] nails and their teeth. [53:36] Even if they could have their arms hacked off, they would still keep going. [53:39] Like they would just... And they would attack other Vikings. They were berserk. [53:43] That's where we get the word from. [53:45] - Uh, what do we understand the mindset leads to that? [53:48] I mean, it wasn't religious in nature. There's not this kinda [53:52] ideology. It's just the way of life and then the prized [53:56] honor and intensity in battle. [54:00] - Yeah. I mean, one of Odin's names is the raven feeder. I mean, you [54:04] were, by creating corpses, which ravens feed on, you are, [54:08] you're doing the work of Odin. And, you know, the, [54:12] the Viking view of the afterlife was unique. There weren't really punishments, [54:20] not really, for doing bad things. Unless you did something really bad. [54:25] Then you ended up as basically an evil spirit, haunting your grave. [54:32] But if you were brave, then you got taken to the house of the dead, which is [54:36] Valhalla to... And you were resurrected. Every day [54:40] you would fight, and whatever wounds you got would be magically healed that night. [54:44] And then the next morning you'd get up and do it again. So you're essentially practicing for [54:49] Ragnarok- ...the final battle, [54:52] which you would lose. So I'm not sure. It seems, it's rather pessimistic. [54:57] - The battle's what... I mean, it sounds like losing is not a [55:01] thing. The battle itself is what matters, so [55:04] Valhalla...It's a place where you fight a battle every day. [55:07] - Every day. [55:08] - Unlimited food, there's like a boar or whatever. [55:11] - Yeah. Yeah, that's right. [55:11] - There's unlimited wine. [55:13] - Yep. [55:13] - And you can die as much as you want- [55:16] - As much as you want, yeah [55:16] - ...and you'll be born again. And this is the idea of the highest... [55:22] This, I guess, if there's such a thing as heaven in this kind of [55:25] construction of the universe, this is heaven. [55:28] - This is heaven, yeah. [55:28] - This is the highest form. This is the highest place you can go to is Valhalla. [55:33] Is fight every day, eat as much as you want, drink as much as you want, [55:38] die and are reborn the next day. [55:41] And this is forever, preparing yourself for the final battle of Ragnarok. [55:47] - Ragnarok. [55:48] - So this is where, this is the end of the world, this is the cataclysm. [55:52] - Mm-hmm. That's right. [55:52] Odin's gonna die, Thor will die. He'll get killed by one of Loki's children, the [55:58] Midgard Serpent. Odin will be devoured by a wolf. [56:04] The sun and moon, which are being chased by [56:08] monsters, by giants, will be caught and swallowed by the giants, [56:11] plunging the world into eternal darkness. Essentially all the gods will die [56:19] and darkness and chaos will then ensue. And then at the very [56:23] end the... This is mostly from a guy named Snorri Sturluson who was [56:27] living right at the end of the Viking Age and writing this. And he was, I believe, a [56:31] Christian. So there's... I think we're fusing things here. [56:34] So then there would be a new Earth and a new heaven and a new god, [56:39] who's all powerful. [56:40] - Yeah, if you think of religion as a kind of technology, [56:44] a social technology that stabilizes or helps guide the evolution of a society, it's [56:52] interesting to see what the Vikings came up with. And do you ever think [56:56] from a history, the grand view of history, [57:00] how effective these different technologies of religion have been? [57:04] - Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly... [57:07] I'm thinking of the Viking rituals. Hospitality is [57:11] very important in a northern climate where, you know, food is scarce, winters [57:15] are long and harsh. And if you don't share your hearth with, [57:21] you know, someone knocking on your door, then someone else might not share it with you [57:26] and you could be facing death. So in this case hospitality becomes a core belief [57:30] and— ... you know, the idea was that Odin would travel incognito, [57:35] knocking on people's doors, and he would remember [57:38] if you let him in or not. And if you were hospitable, he would bless you, and if you were [57:42] inhospitable, he would murder you. And— [57:45] ... you know, I think these rituals are obviously intended for, [57:50] "How do we survive this winter?" [57:52] - Yeah, how do we effectively spread the message that hospitality is pretty? [57:58] Good thing and it's characteristic of religion. [58:01] If you do a good thing, you'll be rewarded. If you do a bad thing, you'll [58:05] be punished. And then different religions play the different ways of [58:09] communicating that. [58:11] - Yeah. I mean, I think also religion gives you, it gives you a [58:15] world view, right? It gives you a morality and these are core parts of society. [58:24] - And the beautiful thing about religion [58:27] is it interplays with human nature and it guides humans. [58:31] But then of course, human nature and humans [58:35] project themselves onto the religion, sometimes they use their religion. It's [58:42] to accomplish goals in a pragmatic sense, in a political sense, in a geopolitical sense, [58:46] in a military sense, in a social sense. And so there's that dance of [58:54] how religion invigorates and guides the peoples, [58:58] and then how the peoples use the religion to guide the direction of the world. [59:06] And that's certainly the history of Christianity has a big role to play in [59:10] the history of Europe, in the history of the Byzantine Empire, [59:14] And that part of the world. And it was an incredibly effective religion, [59:18] Once Constantine converted. [59:23] It spread extremely quickly, relatively speaking, across a couple of [59:26] centuries. Just to linger on the Viking views of the [59:30] world and the afterlife. So we mentioned Valhalla. There's the Norns, [59:34] which are the three spirits that represent the past, the present and the [59:38] necessity. They spin the fates of all men and gods at the Roots of Yggdrasil. [59:44] - Yeah. Yggdrasil. [59:45] - Yggdrasil. So there's a notion of like determinism and fate [59:50] to the Viking life. And there's Valhalla, there's Hel, Niflheim. [59:55] This was the destination for the vast majority of people. [59:58] So if you don't make it to Valhalla, this is where you go. [60:01] - That's where you go. [60:02] - Unless you're a real bad person, then there's some punishment for the truly wicked. [60:06] - And we should point out that Hel, spelled with one L was a daughter of Loki- [60:12] ... And was not the same as the... [60:15] - Hel with the two L's. [60:16] - Hel with the two L's. Very different. [60:18] - It's more like purgatory type of situation. [60:20] - Yeah, so it's the house of the, it's like the house of the dead, the house of the underworld. [60:24] - A colorless twilight, not necessarily a place of punishment but [60:28] simply the inevitable end for most, unless [60:32] you end up in Valhalla, which means you're a great warrior dying in battle. [60:36] - It reminds me of the Greek view of the afterlife, right? Where you essentially get amnesia and forget who you [60:40] are unless someone makes a sacrifice and says your name, and only [60:44] then you'll remember it. So your destiny is ultimately to [60:49] just become gray and fade away. So you might as well- [60:53] you might as well be brave. You might as well run at that spear. [60:56] - So that was the engine of their- [61:00] the warrior culture that was core to their society. [61:04] - I think probably. [61:06] - I have to ask about Vikings as explorers. They were...... truly one of the greatest [61:10] explorers in history. What can you say to, [61:14] what is it in their spirit that motivated them? I mean, they sailed, they [61:18] reached North America 500 years before Columbus. They sailed, [61:23] Obviously to England, Spain, Italy, Russia, North Africa, the Middle East, Paris, [61:30] and I'm just showing here a map of the ocean routes and the river [61:34] systems that they connected to and sailed. What do you think drove them [61:40] to explore the unknown? [61:42] - This boggles my mind. This, like this map here just, [61:46] it messes with me because they didn't have a compass. [61:50] I mean, can you imagine shoving off from some fjord in Norway [61:54] west. That's your only, west. [61:57] And there was a Viking named Naddodd. He's actually the first [62:01] Norseman to reach Iceland, though it was a total accident. But here's the, here's the [62:05] mind-blowing part. He decides to land and explore, [62:09] and he gets off and he sees two humans. They're monks from Ireland. [62:14] They got there in a canoe. [62:16] You look at Ireland, look at Iceland, that's even more impressive. [62:21] They got in a canoe, a skin boat- [62:23] ... and they just went north because they were trying to get away from the world. [62:26] They found Iceland, and [62:28] in a very excellent move on their part, they ran away as soon as the Vikings arrived, which [62:32] is, you know, pretty smart. [62:35] - I don't know if you know there's this video of the deranged penguin [62:39] with the Werner Herzog documentary, where [62:45] Werner Herzog is like, overdubbing, explaining the thinking of the penguin. But the [62:51] penguin leaves the tribe and he just goes out into the mountains. I have to show you this video. [62:55] This is my favorite video of all time. There's this low-key documentary [63:02] where they're talking about penguins, and then there's one penguin that leaves- [63:08] - I'm out. [63:09] - ... leaves the tribe and just goes towards the mountains, and [63:13] as Werner Herzog says, "Towards certain death." It [63:17] always reminds me of this kind of Viking spirit or the— ... or the monk spirit. [63:22] There's something, one human or a small group of humans just decide to go. [63:28] - Just go, yeah. [63:28] - And not look back. [63:30] - Are there sea monsters out there? Maybe. [63:32] - Maybe. [63:32] - Is there any land? Are we gonna fall off the edge of the earth? Maybe. [63:35] - And just as Werner Herzog says, you know, "There's certain death." [63:39] Now, he doesn't romanticize it. He says the penguin is just deranged and crazy. [63:45] But look, the penguin did look back briefly. [63:48] - Right. [63:48] - He did think about this. So this— [63:53] ... there's two ways, there's multiple ways, but you just [63:57] highlighted two ways to explore. One is 'cause you're this [64:00] hardcore dude that just is looking to [64:04] raid and just goes and goes and just you have the resilience and the will- [64:10] ... to keep going. And then there's the monks that just want to leave. [64:15] - Escape, yeah. Yeah. [64:16] - They just go toward the, they want to leave far away- [64:20] ... so they could be closer to God. They could be closer to themselves and to- [64:23] - And away from sin. Yeah. [64:25] You know, there's this poem by Tennyson, Ulysses, my favorite poem. [64:29] Uh, I think it captures the Viking spirit. The last line of it is to strive, [64:33] "to seek, to find, and not to yield." I think that's very much like the [64:37] Viking, you know, "My purpose holds, to sail beyond the baths of all the western [64:41] stars until I die." You may die, but I'm gonna do this, and I'm not gonna yield. [64:46] - That spirit is one of my favorite aspects of human beings. [64:50] - I think that's why the Vikings remain so popular today, you know? [64:54] We name our satellites, our football teams, you know, our cruise ships. [64:58] There's this like, there's this romantic hook- ... of a people who did not yield. [65:05] - Yeah, they embodied the part, the flame that burns in all of us [65:09] that we admire most about human beings. Is that like unyielding focus on [65:21] going out there, of taking a leap into the unknown, [65:25] into the scary, and never stopping. [65:27] - That's right. It's not too late to seek a newer world. [65:31] - I have to ask you about, speaking of a newer world, America. [65:36] And Leif Ericson. But first, a quick bathroom break if it's okay. [65:40] Quick 30-second thank you to our sponsors. Check them out in the description. It really [65:44] is the best way to support this podcast. Go to lexfridman.com/sponsors. We got [65:51] Larridin, for measuring AI adoption in your business, BetterHelp, [65:55] for mental health, LMNT, for electrolytes, Fin, for [65:59] customer service AI agents, Shopify for selling stuff online, and [66:02] Perplexity, for curiosity-driven knowledge exploration. [66:07] Choose wisely, my friends. And now, back to my conversation with Lars Brownworth. [66:14] All right, we're back. Let's talk about this incredible fact of [66:18] the Vikings, that Leif Ericson, who was a Viking explorer, [66:22] was the first European to reach North America around the year [66:26] 1000, five centuries before Columbus reached North America. [66:31] Tell the story of his journey. What do we know about him? [66:35] - So let's begin with his dad. His dad's name is Erik the Red, who [66:41] was forced to flee Norway when he was probably 10 years old [66:45] because his dad had killed some people. It's kind of hilarious. [66:49] In the saga it says, "For a few killings..." [66:53] Okay, I guess that's a thing. So he went to Iceland [66:58] and he got a farm in Iceland which was already starting to become [67:01] overpopulated. They had cut down all the trees. There were [67:04] some climate problems of deforestation [67:08] and farms just blowing away, so the population was [67:12] essentially beginning to crash in Iceland. And he [67:16] got into a fight with his neighbor and ended up killing his neighbor, [67:21] and so he was exiled from Iceland. He was exiled from the place his father had been exiled [67:25] from. [67:26] - So it runs in the family, this whole outlaw thing. [67:29] - What also ran in the family apparently was this streak, this [67:33] courageous streak. And he had heard that there had been people... So the, [67:37] the Norwegian Vikings, they were aiming for England, and [67:41] they hit the Hebrides, which are these kind of treeless islands [67:45] above Scotland, and they found they were good for refueling 'cause they'd get, [67:49] pick up water or whatever, and then on your way to Scotland to raid. [67:53] And then a Viking had missed the Hebrides and discovered [67:57] Iceland, and then another Viking had aimed for [68:01] Iceland, missed, and hit Greenland. And a little fun [68:05] fact about Greenland, it is both north, south, east, and west of [68:09] Iceland. So it's any direction, you're gonna hit Greenland. [68:12] - So Greenland is hard to miss. [68:15] - It's hard to miss, which is not to take away anything from the [68:18] extraordinary danger, the certain death of going further west. But [68:22] there was this... By this time, there was this idea that, you know, enough people [68:26] had become famous by sailing west into the unknown and [68:30] discovering things, that I think there was a general idea of there's more out there to the [68:34] west. And so he had talked to someone who had seen Greenland and [68:39] reported that there was this good land further west. And so [68:43] he hired the ship's crew of that Viking. So it's kind of the deck was loaded, [68:48] and he went to Greenland where he was able [68:51] to settle two different colonies. One was called the Western Settlement [68:55] in the west, and one was called the Eastern Settlement in essentially the extreme south. [68:59] And that was essentially the edges of where Viking technology could be. [69:03] A cool factoid is that the Vikings practiced husbandry, [69:08] raised animals, and obviously this is not an option [69:11] in Greenland, although they couldn't have known it at the time. But they brought plants with [69:15] them. So, and then they were able to trade with the native Inuit for walrus [69:20] blubber and things like that, and they made a go of it. But [69:25] what's obvious, you know, anyone who's seen Greenland, [69:29] there's, there are no trees. It's almost impossible to survive [69:33] by practicing husbandry. It is impossible to survive, as it turns out, [69:37] just practicing husbandry. And by this point, I think this [69:41] extraordinary Viking pragmatism is beginning to be played out. Because [69:47] one of the reasons the Greenland experiment fails ultimately in 300 years is they [69:55] fail to adapt. It's clearly they should, they should focus more on [70:00] fishing, on other sources than, than just raising pigs and cows. But- [70:07] - Oh, so we hit the limit of the, [70:10] the Viking adaptability which they have demonstrated throughout the world, I'd say. [70:14] Interesting. [70:15] - So Erik the Red is this, he makes his name by exploring, [70:19] and he does in fact, once he discovers Greenland, he calls it green. [70:25] He says there's so many salmon in the rivers of, in the fjords that you can [70:29] just scoop them out with your hands. You don't even have to fish. [70:32] - Was this real? [70:33] - It's a lie. [70:34] - Okay. [70:34] - That's not true at all. [70:35] - So he's doing propaganda. [70:36] - He's doing propaganda. [70:37] - So is that... Is this story true that he called it green just so he can attract- [70:41] - It is. [70:41] - So- [70:41] - The greatest real estate scam in history. Yeah. [70:46] - Okay. Genius. I mean, just stuck to this day. [70:50] - Yeah. It's the most misnamed place in the world. [70:53] But in the Europe of the time, even in Iceland, the [70:56] dream was to have land. I mean, land equaled wealth in Europe. [71:00] And here he says there's enough land for the taking, like [71:04] anyone who wants it, which is true. It's the largest island on earth. I mean, it's, [71:08] it's unusable, but it should be called Iceland, [71:11] Glacier Land or something. But it worked. He took 500 men [71:15] with him from Iceland. It's gotta be a significant chunk of the [71:19] population, but there's enough people, kind of land hungry, there's no more room in [71:23] Iceland. It's too restrictive. We're gonna go further west. So he takes 25 ships and [71:31] then 14 make it, which is pretty good. And then those 14 ships with their [71:41] 300 or so people start the western colony. And then word [71:46] gets back to Norway, but Norway's 2,000 miles away, 2,000-plus miles away. So it's, [71:52] you know, contact... They're having to get resupplied. In the first winter, all their [71:56] cattle die. That's not a great, that's not a great start for [72:01] people who practice husbandry. So they've got to get resupplied from Norway, [72:04] but, you know, the chances of making it to Norway and back are actually [72:08] not that great if you're sailing without a compass. [72:11] You're just kind of hoping. But they do it. They do it. And the colonies [72:15] survive until the 1400s, where they just go silent. [72:20] - So let's talk about Erik the Red's son, Leif Erikson. [72:25] How does the journey continue west? [72:28] - So Erik is getting a little older. The Greenland settlements are [72:32] becoming filled up. Erik is happy where he is. He's been kicked out of enough [72:35] places. He's made his home here, and this is where he wants to be. But [72:39] his son... They're running out of resources. There's no wood. [72:43] You know, there's limited food, et cetera, et cetera. And so his son [72:47] proposes going west because he's heard stories that there are [72:51] other lands. So another Viking had gotten lost, aimed for Greenland and [72:55] missed, and had seen something. He said he saw [72:58] clouds and mountains and there's land there. And then he had [73:02] turned around. And Leif again did the same thing, he hired the man's crew. [73:07] He asked his dad to come, his dad wouldn't. He went with his half sister Freydis, who [73:11] was a whole nother story by herself, and a bunch of other [73:14] colonists, and they went, and they landed in a place. [73:18] He called it Vinland because he found-... [73:23] things that he could ferment. So, of course, the Vikings, they made wine, or a [73:26] wine-like alcohol. So Leif Erikson is, he's landed. He doesn't know this, but [73:32] he's landed on a new continent with essentially inexhaustible stores of food and [73:40] timber and everything he needs. It's the perfect place. [73:43] Unfortunately for him, it's also inhabited by [73:47] some natives, probably the Algonquin tribe. He calls them [73:52] the Skraelings, which is just Norse for screechers because he [73:56] can't understand their language. They just yell at them and attack immediately. [74:00] They stay there for three years and then give up [74:05] and go back home. So ultimately, it... and then really don't tell anyone about it. [74:08] They just keep it in their northern sagas. [74:11] - Why do you think they left? Why do you think they didn't stick around longer? [74:15] - I think there are a number of things working against them. Of course, I would like to believe there's an alternate [74:19] history where the Vikings successfully make it down, [74:23] you know, maybe down to Maryland or something, and there's an alternate history [74:27] of the US and Canada here, but I think there's a number of things [74:31] working against them. The first is they stubbornly [74:35] refused to give up husbandry, so they're trying to make this work. [74:39] L'Anse aux Meadows I think is where they were, in Newfoundland. It doesn't work. [74:44] The climate's too cold. It's not... the grasses aren't appropriate, you [74:48] know, it's just not gonna work and they do not adapt, number one. Number [74:52] two, they're 2,000-plus miles away from Norway and getting [74:55] resupplied, and although they are extremely good sailors and explorers [74:59] and traders, I think this is a little too far. [75:02] And then thirdly is the native resistance. It's just too [75:06] incessant. They are outnumbered, you know, millions to one. [75:11] And the Algonquin do not want them there. It's clear, [75:15] and they're not gonna stop attacking. [75:18] - It's so fascinating because they really didn't understand [75:22] the full scale of the land they've encountered, right? [75:25] - That's right. That's right. I mean, had they known, had he known- [75:29] ... what he had found- [75:30] - That there's more south. Maybe they, their intuition- [75:33] - That's right. [75:33] - ... was like there's not... it's just all northern land, it's void of [75:39] resources. We can't do the whole husbandry thing. [75:43] But you would think they could go down the coast. [75:46] - I mean, if they could have gotten enough people from Norway, [75:50] you know, or Iceland or whatever, you know, a sizable enough colony, [75:54] and build some kind of defenses to fight off the incessant attacks- [75:58] ... then I think that's the difference there, 'cause there certainly the resources are all there. [76:02] - Mm-hmm. Or just keep staying in the water, keep going down the coast- [76:05] - Yeah. Yeah. [76:06] - ... not necessarily camp out until, until you get further south. [76:10] It is fascinating to think about that alternate history where they would have [76:14] discovered America and settled there. So this is 500 [76:18] years before Columbus. There's... [76:20] first of all, they could have done a lot of the stuff we [76:23] think about the European nations doing, [76:26] including brutality towards the natives. But there could have been [76:30] a coexistence also, and some of the diseases that come with [76:36] them could have done the damage that they did 500 years later. But now, [76:44] it would have stabilized the populations to where the Europeans, the French, the [76:50] Spanish, and so on who come, the natives would be more ready. So [76:54] they would... Europe would then encounter [76:57] a sizable population of the Viking descendants and the [77:01] natives to where the two could hold onto the land [77:06] and bring a different kind of civilization there. [77:09] Because ultimately Europe, with the European ways, of the Western [77:12] civilization, expanded out into North America, [77:16] but there could be this whole Scandinavian vibe- ... that would have taken over. [77:22] - Just a hair's breadth. My favorite museum in New York is called The [77:26] Cloisters. It's part of the Met, and in the Cloisters, there's an ivory cross. [77:32] And the ivory cross has been richly carved with Christian scenes. [77:39] It was carved in England, but it's made of walrus ivory, [77:45] and they got it from the New World. [77:49] And the Viking, you know, Viking traders. It represents, you know, the great [77:53] arc of the northern trade. So it's walrus ivory from the New World via [77:58] Norway to England to New York. It's a great symbol of that trade. [78:04] - This whole just period of thousands of years of exploration [78:11] that we no longer can do, so it's kind of geographic exploration of the world, [78:16] is fascinating. It takes true courage. It takes true wander. [78:22] Uh, the kind of exploration we could do now is more in the scientific realm and the realm [78:26] of ideas and then maybe in terms of geography out into space and [78:30] exploring the universe. [78:32] - Yeah, I think the closest analog is probably Mars, right? I mean, what would [78:36] it take for you to be like, "All right, I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna go to Mars"? You're, [78:40] never coming back. There's nothing there as far as you know. You know, all [78:43] the accoutrements of civilization are not there. It's- that's the kind of [78:47] courage you would have taken. [78:49] - Yeah, but there's, on top of that, with Greenland, with Iceland, with Finland, [78:54] there's just so much uncertainty, like literally what's beyond [78:58] this hill. So with Mars, everything is mapped. So, [79:02] so it's really you, you understand the full harshness of the situation. [79:06] - Of what you're gonna face, yeah. [79:07] - So it's more, it's that's more akin to like, all right, I'm running an [79:11] ultra-marathon. I understand the challenge. [79:14] I think more akin would be like traveling out into [79:19] like the Oort Cloud, like beyond the solar system. [79:22] - What's scarier, the known or the unknown? [79:26] - I think that deeply, the human nature pulls us towards the unknown. [79:30] - No, it's true. Yeah. [79:31] - All right. Speaking of which, going to the East. [79:36] So like we mentioned, the Vikings really went all over. And one of [79:40] the directions they went that ended up touching the Byzantine Empire in [79:44] Constantinople, is they went East. What can you say about the [79:49] 8th century journey East in the river networks that the Vikings did, the Swedish [79:56] Vikings, the Varangians, as they began to explore the river systems of Russia? [80:02] - So this was the most surprising part for me when I was [80:05] first thinking about writing the book and, you know, discovering where the [80:09] Vikings went. I never... In a million years, it would've never occurred to me that the [80:13] Vikings went East. But a- a good way to think of this is [80:18] the Vikings launched themselves in whatever direction their country is [80:21] facing. So Sweden goes to the East, Denmark [80:25] goes down toward Germany, and Norway goes England and the New [80:29] World. So there's a Viking named Rorik who goes East [80:35] and manages to set up an encampment on this lake called Staraya Ladoga. [80:41] - Which is a launchpad to both the Volga River and the Dnieper River. [80:46] - Yeah, and these are major river systems in the East that take you all the way [80:50] down to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. Because the Vikings, [80:54] you know, such sea-born people, they can sail up rivers. [80:58] This allows them access to the caliphates in the [81:02] East and to the Byzantium Empire, where [81:06] they, being Vikings, immediately decide to attack the city. [81:11] The Byzantines essentially set the Sea of Marmara outside of Constantinople on fire- [81:16] ... and burn up all the Viking ships. So then the Vikings decide, [81:20] "Okay, we can't, we can't take Constantinople, so we might as well join 'em if [81:24] we can't beat 'em." And they end up as [81:29] probably the most famous guard in Byzantine history, the Varangian Guard. [81:33] Varangian means the men of the oath. [81:35] Or the men who've sworn an oath. This is kind of an analog [81:39] of the Praetorian Guard in Ancient Rome. [81:42] They were famously loyal to the throne, but not [81:46] necessarily to the person sitting on the throne. [81:50] they're major power players. The last of the [81:54] great Byzantine emperors, Basil the Bulgar Slayer, forms them in the late 900s. [82:02] And they're there with the history all the way up until the end of it. [82:05] In fact, many of our famous Vikings, Harald Hardrada [82:09] serve in the Varangian Guard. If you go to Constantinople today, inside the Church of the [82:13] Hagia Sophia, on the second floor there's a marble balcony, [82:17] and on the railings, you can find Norse runes that are carved in by [82:21] Varangian Guards who were bored during a particularly long sermon, [82:26] in a language they didn't understand, but they had to stand there. [82:29] - So that's a fascinating thing, which is the Varangian Guard [82:32] guarding the emperor of the East Roman Empire, [82:36] is made up initially, for quite a bit of time, of Vikings. [82:44] I mean, like speaking of pragmatic, they just integrate into everything. [82:50] Now eventually, the Varangian Guard became less and less Viking over time. [82:56] But this whole... You fast-forwarded the story, we should mention [82:59] that Staraya Ladoga in 753 AD is when it was established, opening the connection to [83:07] the two rivers, and they began trading on the rivers [83:11] and establishing more stable states along the rivers, [83:15] including the Kievan Rus in 862, 882, [83:20] where the Varangians, so it's the Swedish Vikings, [83:23] they took Novgorod, they took Kiev, and they established the Kievan Rus [83:27] there. And that is what led to the [83:31] connection to the Byzantine Empire, where they started to... Again, [83:35] the Vikings went from being Vikings. They go through this process of trading [83:40] and then establishing a state, now they're doing treaties of different [83:44] kinds, and they're also waging, or trying to wage war. And [83:52] going all the way to Constantinople, and having a deep admiration for [83:56] Constantinople, enough to then begin to dream of sacking Constantinople. [84:03] - Yeah. I mean, once they're alerted to the wealth that's there, you know, [84:06] Vikings being Vikings, they show up. [84:10] - Can you speak to the Greek Fire? So this was 941 and 944 [84:16] when they tried, and then Greek Fire was this technology developed by the Romans. [84:23] - We don't really know what it was, Greek Fire. It was a form of [84:27] napalm, obviously. We have the ingredients what made it up, [84:31] naphtha and oil and things like that. But it was this very [84:34] flammable material that would ignite on contact. [84:38] So the Byzantines would fill it into clay pots and then [84:42] throw the clay pots. As soon as it's exposed to oxygen, it would [84:46] start burning. They also had siphons. They would carry, like, flamethrowers on their back [84:50] and they would just spray it at enemies. And the real [84:54] devious thing about it is that if you launch this clay pot at a ship [84:58] and the material, you know, pooled across the wood and [85:02] then dripped off into the water, being oil, it would float on top of the water and [85:06] continue to burn. So that if you were a sailor and [85:10] you jumped off the ship 'cause it's on fire and jumped into [85:14] this oil patch that's on fire, you'd be coated with it and you'd [85:17] burn underneath the water. It was a horrible way to go. So this was a state secret, [85:24] closely guarded secret. So closely guarded—it remains a mystery to this day [85:28] of what exactly it was. [85:29] - Which is incredible, right? [85:31] - Yeah. But it, in the 944 attack on [85:34] Constantinople, I mean the Vikings are coming on their ships. They brought these ships from [85:38] Sweden. I mean that's crazy. They're in the Black Sea. They've [85:42] sailed and they kind of swarm at the Byzantines. The [85:46] Byzantines launch a bunch of decrepit old ships toward them [85:51] that have Greek fire on them, and that turns the tide. But [85:54] the Byzantine emperor so appreciates the strength of [85:58] these horrifying Vikings that he forms a bodyguard of them. [86:03] - And hence we get just a few years later, again, tried to sack [86:07] Constantinople and then join them. [86:09] - Join 'em, yep. [86:10] - The Varangian Guard in 988 with Basil II and Vladimir, [86:14] they make Varangian Guard into an institution, and then the word of mouth [86:18] spreads that this is a real career path for the, [86:22] for the Viking, is to join the guard. [86:25] - Yeah, that's right. [86:27] 'Cause not only do you get paid very, you're compensated very well [86:30] obviously for defending the emperor, particularly if you do a good job, but you also have opportunities [86:34] 'cause the emperor sends you, "Let's go attack, you know, [86:39] this tribe," and you get to keep whatever you take. So there's tremendous amounts of [86:43] war profiteering you can accomplish. And the other great river system, the Volga, [86:49] that brings you to the the great enemy of the Byzantines, the Abbasid [86:52] Caliphate. And they had a lot of trading links with the north. So you get things [87:00] like fur and amber, lots of slaves from the from the [87:06] Islamic world going up. You even have in a Swedish coin hoard, [87:12] there's a Buddha that's been found. I mean- ... it's Sweden. [87:18] - Yeah. So these networks of trade, just how incredible are they with geography, [87:25] right? You can transform your understanding of land [87:28] from the geography of the land to the geography of the [87:32] river networks, because the way they raid and then invade and [87:36] then conquer England is through the rivers. It's an [87:39] incredibly different way of seeing the world. [87:42] - Yeah. And if you look at the kingdoms the Vikings created, I'm thinking particularly [87:46] of like Eric Bloodaxe in, you know, in York, [87:52] he's controlling parts of Ireland parts of [87:56] Scotland, Wales, England. Like there's no... That [88:00] doesn't make sense unless, unless you're a Viking. You know, he's... [88:06] That also added tremendously to the terror that the [88:10] Vikings brought, because I mean you should probably be a little careful with [88:13] absolute statements here, but I can't think of a major European city [88:17] that's not on a river. [88:20] Uh, which meant now with the Vikings, 'cause they could travel up, you [88:23] know, rivers, the shallow rivers and then carry their [88:27] boats whenever, they would, everything was on the table now, even hundreds [88:31] of miles inland is on the table. [88:33] - Mm-hmm. And an incredible speed, much faster than the land armies. It's terrifying. [88:38] - It's terrifying. [88:38] - So you're living in a constant state of fear. [88:39] - Constant state of fear. [88:41] - We've talked about this transition [88:45] in several different contexts, but you've written about this. It's [88:49] really interesting. Is the Vikings, like Ragnar, [88:54] going from this mode of sea kings with no territory to the mode of land kings? [89:03] Do you have like somebody like Harald Bluetooth, 10th century Viking king of Denmark, [89:07] you go from being these grand explorers that are [89:11] free to being state builders. Was this [89:15] always inevitable for all of these Vikings? Could we speak to the different [89:19] transitions, maybe in England? [89:21] - I think in one way, it's inevitable. There's so many [89:25] examples of destroyers who just wreck civilizations. [89:30] The builders are much more rare, you know? So I think it's, [89:34] it's one of the reasons I think Augustus is a much more interesting person than Julius [89:38] Caesar is. Augustus was a builder, and I like to [89:42] see that. I like to see not just can you pull down, but can you build up? [89:47] You know, just to take Ireland for example, [89:50] Dublin, Limerick, almost every major city in Ireland was founded by the Vikings. [89:58] So I don't think it's just a given that it would have happened. I think there's something [90:02] about the Vikings, and it's probably tied to their pragmatism, their, like [90:07] this pragmatic streak of, "We're gonna use whatever. Oh, this system of [90:11] king works. This taxation system's pretty good, let's keep it." [90:15] You know, "Oh, this is, this doesn't work. Let's ditch it." [90:18] - Yeah, they, I mean the, they went from destroyer to [90:21] builder very naturally and very quickly. [90:24] - Yeah. There's a natural process from conquering to building, [90:30] but it does take talent and it does take a certain something. [90:34] - Can we talk about so one of the great Vikings, Canute the Great? [90:39] - I love Canute. I love Canute. I think he never, he doesn't get his due. He's one of those [90:43] unsung heroes, I think, of the Viking world. He had a reputation. [90:47] He was called the Emperor of the North. [90:49] He had this massive, you know, England, Scotland, [90:53] Wales, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I mean he's just tying it all together. [91:00] He was an extremely effective English king. [91:04] I believe he introduced the penny, sadly discontinued, but I— [91:08] - Oh wait, really? Discontinued? [91:10] - Discontinued. They're no longer making... [91:11] - The penny is discontinued. [91:12] - 2025's the last, the last penny. [91:14] - Oh, no. [91:15] - Everything's gonna go up by five. [91:19] - Uh, so going to Perplexity. Canute the Great [91:24] was an early 11th century Danish ruler who became king of [91:28] England, Denmark and Norway.... [91:31] creating what historians call the North Sea Empire. He's [91:35] often regarded as one of the most effective kings in Anglo-Saxon [91:39] English history for stabilizing the realm after decades of Viking warfare. [91:44] Again, an example of a destroyer becoming a state builder. [91:47] - Yeah. He was, he was extremely strong. He was effective. [91:53] You know, England went from being the whipping boy of [91:57] the Vikings to controlling the Vikings. [92:01] - And ended up on a pilgrimage to Rome. [92:04] - Went to Rome. Yeah. [92:06] - So he although a Viking war leader, Canute ruled as a Christian king— [92:11] ... Patronizing churches and monasteries and going on pilgrimage to [92:15] Rome in 1027 where he attended the Holy Roman Emperor's coronation. [92:21] - Yes, he was recognized by his contemporaries as something special, right? [92:24] You don't get invited to those coronations if you're a nobody. [92:28] But the most famous story of Canute that I know, my favorite story, is, [92:34] you know, being in positions of power, being famous, a lot of people sucking up to [92:38] you, a lot of people telling you whatever they think you wanna hear. [92:41] And so people are telling him all the time how wonderful he is, and he takes [92:45] his whole court down to the seashore and orders his, [92:49] his courtiers to carry him on his throne into the water, [92:54] and then he commands the seas to stop, the waves to stop and to retreat. [93:00] And they don't obviously, and everyone thinks he's a little... But his point [93:05] is that, "Y'all are saying how great I am. I have no control." I mean, this is his [93:08] active humility to kind of embarrass... "I have no control over anything. Stop [93:12] telling me I'm the greatest thing since sliced bread." [93:15] - I like the leaders, and there's a few of them in history that [93:19] rise to the very top, and they're still able to maintain humility. [93:23] Marcus Aurelius in the Roman Empire is an example [93:27] that, you know, reading Meditations is also just an [93:31] insight into the mind of a man who's [93:34] to himself, 'cause Meditations is not supposed to be [93:38] work that's published. It's just a diary. To himself, he's deeply humbled. And- [93:45] ... and one of the most powerful humans in history- ... is still humble. [93:49] - The two most famous stoics, one was an emperor and one was a slave. [93:55] - So in the other part of the world, you've written a [93:59] book and you did a legendary podcast [94:02] series on The Byzantine Empire, the East Roman Empire, [94:06] AKA, The Roman Empire. Well, let me actually [94:10] just as a tangent of a tangent ask you about the podcast. So you're, you created [94:14] what is widely considered to be the first [94:18] history podcast. This is before Dan Carlin, before [94:22] all the amazing podcasts we all know and love. So the [94:26] podcast series of course is The Twelve Byzantine Rulers: The History of the Byzantine [94:30] Empire. What motivated you to explore this medium [94:36] of podcasting? What... In, in the early, this must've been 2005, [94:40] something like this. [94:41] - It was, it was '05, yeah. [94:42] - And people should go listen to it because it, it's still, I mean, it's like, it's [94:46] like we're talking about like [94:48] ancient times or something, 'cause it is now a long time ago, but it's still an [94:51] incredibly good podcast. It's a great podcast series. [94:54] - Thank you. At the time, there's a series that I would [94:58] get at the library called The Great Courses. I don't know if you're familiar with- [95:02] - Yes. Great Courses, yes. [95:03] - There was one particular professor. His name is Bob Brier, and he [95:07] was, he's an Egyptologist, lives on Long Island where I'm from, and he, [95:13] I mean, it's a massive thing. It's like 24 hours- [95:15] ... of lectures about the entire history of Egypt, and it was [95:19] fascinating, 'cause he was, he's such a good storyteller. [95:23] And I was reading... As a kid I could never [95:27] figure out if I liked the medieval period better or the Roman period better. [95:32] I was constantly going back and forth, and [95:35] I stumbled across a book which referred to the medieval Roman Empire, and [95:41] it was a bit like discovering your favorite TV show had 12 [95:45] extra seasons you didn't know about. [95:47] And they were just as good. So I... It really was [95:51] a labor of love. I couldn't, I would not shut up about The Byzantine [95:55] Empire. So my older brother, we would go on walks together and I would be like, "And [95:59] then Justinian, you know, da, da, da." [96:01] And he stopped me, he said, "I have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea, like, I need a [96:05] framework. Give me a framework for this." So I went home and I recorded myself [96:12] giving a framework, which turned out to be episode one, but [96:16] I think I said it, I did it in a British accent, a really bad British accent. [96:21] I was just messing around. [96:22] And I gave him the... Luckily, I did it in my regular voice as well as this [96:26] goofy accent, and I gave it to him and then I forgot about it. And that summer [96:35] I was on a dig in Petra excavating the Temple [96:39] of the Winged Lions, which was like a dream come true for me. And [96:43] I get this email from my brother [96:45] and he said, "Oh, I just submitted it as a podcast." [96:49] So he had to tell me what that was. But I was going for, [96:53] to the extent that I had put thought into it, I was going for kind of a [96:57] longer form lecture Great Courses series on the Byzantines. [97:06] and then a bunch of people started emailing me saying, "When's episode two coming out?" Oh, okay. [97:10] So I guess there has to be an episode two. [97:12] And then the thing kinda snowballed from there. I had no idea what I was doing. [97:15] - Uh, your brother, by the way, is super tech savvy. [97:18] - He is. It wouldn't have happened without Anders. So Anders, thank you. [97:22] - But like looking back now, what do you think about that medium? [97:26] Why do you think it connected so much, [97:29] To people? Because you've also written several [97:33] amazing books. One of them is on The Byzantine [97:36] Empire. Just looking back in a retrospective kind of [97:40] way, because that from there blew up an entire industry of [97:45] incredible other history podcasts and podcasts in general. [97:49] - Yeah, I've been... That's a great question. I've been trying to think [97:53] for the past 20 years, like why it's such a, [98:00] such a niche field, right? Why would people be interested in it? Um, I think number [98:07] one, it's a great story. And people are people, [98:12] and we haven't changed much, which is one of the reasons why it's accessible, [98:16] because it's very... These are people you could meet today. [98:20] Um, but I think podcasting in general, because there's such a low bar to get in, or
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