Transcript [00:00] Wherever you're listening in the world, [00:01] it's a pleasure to welcome you to [00:02] Israelcast, the podcast powered by [00:04] Jewish National Fund USA, your voice in [00:07] Israel. I'm Steven Shallowitz. First [00:09] reminding you that for over 125 years, [00:12] Jewish National Fund USA has been the [00:15] premier philanthropic movement for the [00:17] land and people of Israel. While best [00:19] known for planting trees in Israel, [00:21] JNFUSA contributes to Israeli life in so [00:24] many ways, including community [00:26] development in the negative in the [00:28] Galilee, preservation of heritage sites, [00:31] supporting people with disabilities, [00:32] connecting high school and college [00:34] students to Israel so important, as well [00:36] as helping our brothers and sisters in [00:38] need following the heinous October 7th [00:41] terrorist attack. To learn more and to [00:43] see how you can contribute, do visit [00:45] jnf.org. [00:46] Once again, jnf.org. [00:49] As we mark 3 years since Kamas's savage [00:52] October 7th terrorist attack, we thought [00:55] it important to re-release an interview [00:57] we conducted last year with former [01:00] hostage Tal Shawam, who is taken captive [01:02] from Kibut's Berry on October 7th and [01:05] held in the hell of Gaza for 505 days. [01:10] He was released in February of 2025, but [01:13] at the time of recording, the other [01:15] remaining hostages were still being [01:17] held. Tal's story is powerful and [01:19] poignant. It's worth hearing over and [01:22] over again, and I encourage you to share [01:24] it with others. Now, I started out by [01:26] asking Tal about October 6th in his life [01:29] before he was taken hostage. Here's what [01:32] he said. [01:33] >> So, we lived in Kibutsbury until 2020. [01:37] In in those days, of course, there were [01:40] missile attacks on Israel. I mean, [01:43] occasionally every few weeks. And we [01:47] decided that we don't want to ru our [01:49] children in under threats of missiles [01:52] and penetrations of terrorists into the [01:56] fields of of the south and we decided to [02:00] move to the north. So, we lived near [02:03] Carmeiel in the north in the Galile [02:05] area. It's a beautiful area, isn't it? [02:08] >> Yeah, it's a very beautiful area. And [02:11] you know, we in the north we we are we [02:15] lived, but they are still living in [02:18] coexistence with the Arab Israelis, [02:22] Arabs. So there are Jewish villages and [02:26] Arab villages all around. and uh we live [02:29] together and we decided to to come as we [02:33] did every few weeks, every three or four [02:36] weeks we came to my parents-in-law [02:40] to Kibbutzbury and to visit also my [02:42] parents in Kibbutz [02:46] and we decided to come to Simra to the [02:49] holiday to celebrate with them and to [02:53] give the children the experience of the [02:55] suka cuz they had like a garden and we [02:58] we on October 6 we we sat in the suka we [03:03] drunk we [03:05] drank wine we laughed we had really [03:08] great time [03:10] and we went to sleep [03:14] peacefully not knowing what will come [03:16] next [03:18] >> and then October 7th happened and what [03:20] came next was you heard the sirens you [03:23] ran into the safe room and I believe you [03:27] Seven people in the safe room. Is that [03:29] right? [03:31] >> Yes, we went four fast. [03:34] My wife, aunt and her daughter also came [03:38] to the kibus to celebrate with us and [03:41] her parents-in-law. [03:44] So, all of us gathered in the safe room. [03:47] In the beginning, we thought that it's [03:49] only a missile attack, a regular thing [03:53] in in the south and in most of Israel. [03:56] now I mean until the war [03:59] and it will be an hour or two and and [04:03] that's it but uh really quickly we [04:07] discovered that it's much bigger [04:10] and it's like it started to develop [04:14] really quickly [04:15] >> and we should share with our dear [04:18] audience that your wife is Adi your son [04:21] is Ne and he was eight years old at the [04:24] time um your daughter Yael is or was [04:27] three years old at the time. [04:29] >> Yeah. [04:29] >> So these are young these are young kids [04:31] that don't quite comprehend really [04:33] what's going on. [04:35] >> Yeah. [04:36] >> Right. Actually, no, none of us [04:41] comprehended what is going on cuz never [04:44] before I thought that this kind of of [04:48] breach and and taking over of villages, [04:53] civilians villages inside Israel will [04:56] happen. So, [04:57] >> and what did you hear and what did you [05:00] experience when you were inside the safe [05:03] room? [05:05] So, we went into the safe room. We [05:08] waited until the alarms set off and then [05:12] we started to prepare, you know, into [05:15] the day cuz we ran with our pajamas. We [05:17] didn't brush our teeth yet. [05:20] So, I went upstairs to take some stuff [05:25] and and came down. And then my [05:28] father-in-law [05:30] of Shalom which was murdered that day he [05:35] told me to to lock the door. So I asked [05:38] him if there is a we call it [05:42] a parashi which it means that there is a [05:45] penetration of the fence or the border [05:49] into Israel [05:51] which again is something that happened [05:53] from from time to time and the IDF take [05:55] over and take care of it. So I thought [05:58] to myself, okay, maybe a small unit of [06:01] terrorists try to influence in [06:04] infiltrating the kibutas and the ID will [06:07] take control of it. And we kept um [06:13] preparing for the day and quickly we [06:18] received the order to get into the safe [06:20] room and uh hold the door cuz safe rooms [06:24] doesn't have [06:27] locks cuz it's it it wasn't designed to [06:31] to be against [06:33] terror attack but against missile [06:35] attack. So we entered the room. Uh we [06:41] closed the the air conditioning and and [06:44] the lights so nobody will know that we [06:47] are there. [06:49] Of course they knew cuz they knew that [06:51] everyone will be in the safe rooms. [06:54] And soon enough they we started to hear [07:00] Arabic voices, laughs around us. [07:05] um shootings, grenades exploding. [07:09] And I remember myself thinking, what is [07:13] going on here? Where is the IDF? Uh why [07:17] nobody's coming? [07:20] Um we started to receive messages that [07:23] the IDF is near or is actually in in one [07:26] point inside the kibuts. [07:29] Um, so I didn't understand exactly what [07:32] I'm hearing, if it's a a friendly fire [07:35] or or the terrorists, [07:39] but after a while they surrounded our [07:44] home [07:45] and [07:47] they tried to enter from from the garden [07:51] from uh the back side. They didn't [07:53] succeed in that and they came from the [07:55] front and broke a window into the house. [08:00] I I was really confused in in those [08:04] moments because I didn't understand how [08:07] can it be that that terrorists from Gaza [08:12] are just walking [08:15] inside the kibuts laughing, shouting in [08:19] Arabic, like feeling really comfortable [08:23] in in their position and and it didn't [08:26] make any sense. [08:29] But uh I didn't have enough time to [08:31] think about it cuz now there is a [08:33] terrorist inside the house. The first [08:36] thing he did is to to break glasses on [08:39] the floor cuz he knew that we are [08:41] barefoot. And I understood immediately [08:44] that it was clear planned. I mean it was [08:47] um planned before they they came [08:52] knowing what they are going to do. So [08:55] it's like they they act as as a military [08:58] operation. [09:01] I told the [09:03] my father-in-law of Shalom that they [09:05] broke glasses so we cannot escape [09:10] and we just holded the door both of us. [09:15] After a few minutes of him trying to [09:18] open it without success and shouting to [09:23] us that we should open, ordering us to [09:25] open, he started to to [09:30] he became quiet and and did something [09:33] with the door. So I understood that he [09:36] is putting explosive on the door. [09:38] >> You're talking about the terrorist [09:40] obviously on the other side of the [09:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. On the terrorist. Did he [09:42] speak to you in Hebrew, by the way? [09:45] >> I don't think so. I think it was Arabic. [09:48] I don't remember exactly because I I'm [09:51] also speaking I spoke a little bit [09:54] Arabic. Now I speaking much better, but [09:56] and and I understood. So I don't know [09:58] exactly in which language he he spoke. [10:03] I thought that he's installing the [10:06] explosive so if he will try to escape it [10:08] will blow. but actually tried to blow [10:10] the door. [10:12] Um, lucky for for me, I decided to put [10:16] like a [10:18] all [10:20] wood extension of of a table uh into the [10:24] into the door handle so it will stay [10:28] lock. And this h extension just took [10:34] part of the explosion and it scratched [10:37] me in in my belly. But if it wasn't [10:39] there, I I won't I won't be here to to [10:42] speak with you. So it one of those [10:46] moments of of luck or I don't know how [10:49] to call it, but uh [10:51] >> we say divine intervention. [10:54] >> Exactly. Yeah. And there are many of [10:56] those in in my story and and Adid's [11:00] story. [11:04] So in in that moment I understood that [11:07] it's really really serious and I don't [11:10] know if we will survive this. [11:15] Um my son Nave who was only 8 years old [11:20] he was behind me and when the explosive [11:24] exploded he asked me if we are going to [11:27] die if we're going to die and I was so [11:31] focused on not letting him enter. So I I [11:34] told him like boldly without any emotion [11:37] or empathy. [11:39] I don't know cuz I didn't want him to to [11:44] hear from me a lie if it will be our our [11:47] last moments. [11:51] My wife Adi understood that that he he [11:54] not with her. So she called him under [11:56] the bed and all the women and the [11:59] children tried to he to hide under the [12:02] bed. [12:04] Um [12:06] and the terrorists tried to open the [12:08] door. He didn't succeed with that. So [12:11] they came from the outside and with a [12:14] tractor with a shovel, they started to [12:17] try to break the iron frame or the [12:21] concrete frame of the iron window of the [12:24] safe room. I don't know if if you're [12:27] familiar with safe room, but we had a an [12:29] iron window that supposed to block the [12:33] explosions from from missiles. And then [12:35] inside it there is a bulletproof window [12:39] that you can [12:42] use in regular conditions as just a [12:46] normal window. [12:49] So they came with the shovel to open the [12:51] iron window. [12:53] Uh eventually they succeeded with that [12:56] and then came five terrorists [13:00] uh with their commander that just looked [13:04] into my eye and started to shoot on the [13:07] bulletproof window with his kalachnikov. [13:11] Now, I knew that that he cannot hit me [13:14] yet, but also that a bulletproof window [13:18] can only [13:20] have [13:22] not so much bullets before it's uh [13:25] before you can penetrate it. And I I [13:29] understood instinctively that if they [13:32] will breach uh 10 or 15 cm hole in the [13:37] in the window which I think it's 4 in or [13:40] something like that they will be able to [13:43] throw a grenade inside or to just put [13:46] the kalachinkov and shoot us. So we will [13:49] need to surrender and eventually opened [13:52] this gap in the window and and I raised [13:56] my hand to surrender [13:59] at the I I told the family that I'm [14:01] going I go to going to surrender and [14:04] they said no absolutely not you cannot [14:07] do it but I told them we don't have any [14:09] choice I mean this is the only thing we [14:11] can do now so I raised my hand [14:15] and [14:18] sign them that that I'm surrendering. [14:23] Only when I came back after 505 days, I [14:27] discovered that this decision saved our [14:30] lives cuz everyone in that neighborhood [14:34] in this street was murdered in the same [14:37] way. They didn't open the window and the [14:40] terrorist just threw grenades inside or [14:42] shot into the room and killed everyone. [14:46] So [14:50] he ordered me to open the window. I did [14:53] it and then he took me out [14:57] uh from the window. [14:59] This is the last time I saw my family. [15:02] Uh, I was so shocked but what about what [15:06] I saw outside in the street that I even [15:10] didn't start thought start thought to [15:12] look to look back to my family cuz what [15:15] I saw is dozens of terrorists just [15:19] standing in this in this peaceful street [15:23] of of the kibuts [15:26] um full armed like with with full gear [15:29] on them but not doing anything. I mean, [15:32] just standing there laughing, filming me [15:36] with their cell phones. [15:38] And I felt so betrayed by my own [15:45] government, by my own army, which I [15:48] served years before, as all Israelis [15:52] and I didn't find a way to comprehend [15:58] why the IDF is not there. And there are [16:00] so many terrorists just standing around [16:03] not doing nothing, not feeling any [16:06] threat or stress about their position. I [16:11] mean they controlled the kibuts. [16:14] They took me to a car that they brought [16:18] from Gaza [16:20] and the tractor also they brought from [16:22] Gaza. I mean, it's it's total crazy [16:27] reality what we experienced there. [16:30] So, so they they escort me into a car [16:33] and I saw a two bodies on the street [16:37] which were executed in a bullet with a [16:40] bullet to the head. So, they were [16:43] murdered in in cold blood. [16:46] In in that moment, I I thought that [16:48] maybe they only caught by the fire by [16:52] Hamas's fire because they went to a walk [16:55] into the fields. So, I didn't understand [16:58] that it's actually a massacre in in in [17:01] the kibbutes and the other villages. [17:04] >> And and when you were taken out of the [17:06] window, Tal, uh by the terrorists, did [17:10] you have a chance even to say goodbye to [17:12] your family? I mean, what were those [17:14] last words like? [17:16] the the only the last word I told I say [17:19] to them that we must surrender and [17:22] that's it. I mean they they ordered me [17:26] to come to them. I told them that that [17:28] there are women and children inside the [17:31] room. They asked me how many. I told [17:34] them six. And then they just took me [17:37] from the window and threw me into a [17:40] trunk of a car. [17:43] And in that moment they started to drive [17:47] into Gaza and I thought to myself, okay, [17:51] TA, [17:52] they didn't kill you. So it means that [17:55] they are kidnap you, kidnapping you. [17:58] You're going to be in Gaza probably 5 [18:01] years. You know, we we had one [18:03] experience of Gilachalite before. So [18:06] this is kind of the the time range that [18:09] I was familiar with. [18:13] And I told myself two more things that [18:17] were that were really important [18:20] afterwards. The first was that um [18:24] everything is going to going to change [18:26] from now on and things are not going to [18:29] be as they been before. [18:32] And the second thing is that no matter [18:35] in any it in what condition I will be I [18:39] will demand a human standard from my [18:43] captures. [18:46] So we drove into Gaza. I was really [18:49] fearful from what we call [18:53] which means that the air force, the [18:56] Israeli air force will [19:00] fire on [19:03] on terrorist car to prevent them to from [19:07] taking hostages into Gaza or into [19:11] Lebanon or so on. and and the idea of [19:14] burning inside this trunk was really [19:20] it was really fearful. But eventually we [19:23] entered Gaza. [19:25] >> How long were you in the trunk for, do [19:27] you think? [19:28] >> I think it was 20 or 25 minutes, [19:31] something like that. [19:32] >> Just an awfully long time to be in the [19:33] back of a trunk. [19:35] >> Yeah, it was. And in the middle there [19:38] was a shooting and and like [19:43] the the people from the kibut that were [19:47] in in the back seat they try to escape. [19:49] I didn't understand exactly what is [19:51] happening in in the moment but they [19:54] tried to escape and the husband and the [19:58] child which was also 3 years old managed [20:01] to escape but the wife [20:05] yen got didn't manage she just gave [20:09] their child [20:12] to the husband hand and surrendered [20:15] again because she she understood that [20:17] she won't make it. So [20:20] as you know [20:23] as as we saw [20:25] 70 or now it's 80 years before that um [20:31] that mothers just giving their child so [20:34] they will have six they will have the [20:37] chance to survive [20:39] and and she surrendered and they took [20:41] her back to the car [20:44] and we kept going into Gaza. Now, when [20:47] we arrived into Gaza, they took me out [20:50] of the car and the terrorist that took [20:53] me from from the safe room, [20:56] he had mur murder in his eyes and you [20:58] could see it. You could just it's it's [21:01] like crystal clear and he jumped on the [21:04] roof of the car, pointed his kalachnikov [21:06] on me and and told me to go down to my [21:09] knees. [21:11] Now, instinctively, I understood that if [21:13] I will do it, he will just execute me. [21:16] probably because he didn't have enough [21:18] in there. He went out early in in that [21:21] day. [21:23] >> You mean have enough killing? [21:25] >> Yeah. [21:26] >> Is what you're saying? [21:27] >> Yeah. Exactly. So I raised my hands and [21:31] I shout shot him. [21:34] I surrendered. You should not kill me [21:37] and I won't go to my knees. I won't go [21:39] down. And he shouted back. And we argued [21:43] like that for half a minute or so. [21:47] until another terrorist came and just [21:49] took me from the my shoulders and to [21:53] another direction and we started to walk [21:55] in the streets of Gaza. [21:57] >> That was a brave thing for you to do, [21:59] Tal. He could have just shot you on the [22:01] spot. [22:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. But um somehow I I I knew [22:08] that he won't do it unless I will kneel [22:13] down. [22:14] Um because you know the these people [22:17] grew up on on ISIS films [22:21] and and they didn't have a chance to do [22:25] any of it and on October 7th all their [22:29] evil just unleashed into the into the [22:34] peaceful villages of Israel. [22:37] So I didn't have any time to think about [22:39] it. It was instinctively and and it was [22:42] really like clear instinctive thoughts. [22:48] >> And so another terrorist came and then [22:52] as you said picked you up by your [22:54] shoulders and then you started walking [22:56] through Gaza. How long did you walk [22:58] through Gaza? What did you see around [23:00] you and did people know that you were an [23:02] Israeli hostage at that point? [23:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. The the crowd was cheering [23:08] and and happy and it was [23:13] you know we are speaking about [23:17] um what is the word um uninvolved [23:23] civilians. [23:25] So in Gaza, most of of the civilians are [23:29] involved or were was involved [23:33] on October 7th. [23:37] It was part of them went into the [23:40] kibutas to to l loot the houses and to [23:44] kidnapped corpse and some of them just [23:49] beat every hostage as they [23:54] made the possible to them to to do. I [23:58] mean the part of few I mean there are a [24:01] lot of terrorists in in in in hostages [24:04] in in that moment and part of the groups [24:07] just stopped and called the crowd to to [24:12] do a lynch to the hostages and in the [24:17] last moment they they stopped them [24:18] before they they actually killed them. I [24:20] mean this is what happened to Evatar [24:23] Davidid and Gilbal [24:25] which were my companions for 481 days [24:30] which I will describe further on. [24:33] >> So what you're saying is is that and I [24:35] don't want to put words in your mouth [24:37] and I think there are going to be people [24:39] listening to this that have never heard [24:40] testimony from a hostage. So what you're [24:43] saying is there are people in Gaza that [24:47] attacked hostages and that were [24:49] complicit in October 7th that are quote [24:52] unquote civilians that are not kamas [24:55] terrorists but they took part in the [24:57] atrocities. Is that what you're [24:59] >> Yeah. Okay. [25:00] >> Yeah. Not in the first wave of the [25:03] attack but the second and the third they [25:05] they've been there [25:07] >> and many of them. [25:09] So, so we started to walk in the streets [25:12] for a few minutes and it was really [25:14] clear that they don't know where to go. [25:16] I mean this search for for places to [25:19] hide us. [25:21] Um but after a few minutes came a a a [25:24] person on a on a motor motorbike [25:28] which I discovered that he was a a [25:31] police officer and he and the and my [25:36] capture [25:38] argue a little bit and then he and they [25:41] decided to put me on the bike and do a [25:44] parade inside the streets of Gaza. So [25:47] they just drove in the main streets [25:50] shouting. [25:52] We caught a Jewish pig soldier. [25:57] Although I'm I was 38 years old. I [26:00] wasn't a soldier in that time. I I was a [26:04] civilian. [26:06] And they just kept like that for half an [26:08] hour. The crowd, the civilians were were [26:12] cheering and happy and they tried to [26:15] beat me with sticks and fits. And I was [26:19] lucky that that the driver didn't stay [26:23] enough time in every location to to them [26:26] to catch me. [26:29] And it went like that for half an hour [26:32] or so [26:35] until another police car came and the [26:38] policeman told them to put me into the [26:41] car. I was really grateful that I [26:45] entered this car cuz I understood that [26:47] now I'm at least protected from the from [26:50] the civilians [26:51] and from this [26:54] crazy parade that they try to to do. [26:58] And soon after we went it into a a [27:02] hidden house that they put me inside it [27:07] which I understood that probably the IDF [27:10] don't know where I am. It's like a [27:12] regular house in a civilian neighborhood [27:18] with families all around it. They [27:21] shackled me with a military or a police [27:25] grade shackles. [27:27] And for the for the next 34 days, I was [27:31] with those shackles 24/7. [27:34] >> On your hands? [27:35] >> On my hands? Yeah. [27:40] But at least I I understood that now [27:45] probably nobody will hurt me cuz I'm [27:49] already in hostage and I I hope that [27:52] they will treat me well. They left me to [27:55] myself in this room [27:58] for a few minutes and and only then I I [28:02] could start to think about what happened [28:05] to my family. Uh if they survived it, if [28:08] they were taken hostages also or or were [28:13] murdered [28:15] on on the kibuts. [28:18] um I didn't manage to uh make any [28:24] decisive uh thoughts about it. I mean so [28:29] for the next of the for the next 50 days [28:35] it was one of the most uh hurtful things [28:39] that I I needed to process the the [28:42] thoughts of of my family and and their [28:44] faith. [28:47] Um, [28:50] so they put me in this room and and [28:52] after a few minutes they came [28:55] back in the terrorist that took me from [28:56] the kibuts and another one. [29:00] And as I told you, I I decided to [29:04] to demand a human standard. [29:07] And part of it is that I I every I'm I [29:11] will look them in the eye in any moment [29:14] and any time and I won't show any fear [29:19] from them. So they came and I just shake [29:23] their hands and told them that they did [29:28] a brilliant operation and how they [29:30] succeeded to do it. Of course, I didn't [29:33] know yet the the magnitude of evil that [29:36] they unleashed on on our villages. [29:41] I thought that it's much more local, [29:45] but I I like I [29:48] gave them the sense that I really [29:56] surprised from what they did. And [29:58] >> so you're taken to this room. [30:00] >> You're in a house and you are trying to [30:05] have some kind of connection with your [30:07] captors. And so how long are you there? [30:11] And then where do you go from there? And [30:14] at what point do you meet the other [30:15] hostages? [30:17] So um I've been there for 24 days in [30:23] total [30:26] solitary conditions. I could go erh to [30:30] to speak with my captures if they allow [30:33] it from time to time, but it was so um [30:40] like [30:42] to speak with them was [30:48] I don't know how to describe it. I mean [30:50] their reality and and existence is so [30:54] different than us. I mean the way they [30:56] think [30:58] they have a really really violent [31:03] culture and it's it seemed like they [31:06] they thinking not upside down [31:12] from us but like a bizarre and warp way [31:19] >> of of seeing reality. So every time I [31:22] try to speak with them, we they they [31:25] used to come and and ask me why why is [31:28] the IDF [31:30] attacking them so intensively [31:34] in in the days and weeks after? And I I [31:38] looked at them and I asked them, "Do you [31:41] realize that you [31:43] took that you made the most vicious and [31:48] and [31:49] a cruel attack on Israel [31:53] since its beginning and they say, "Ah, [31:57] no, no, you started on 67 or 48 and so [32:01] on." And it was repeatedly like that. So [32:03] there was no [32:06] there was no reason to to speak with [32:09] them more than just if I go can ask to [32:13] go to the toilet or if I can have a [32:16] little bit more food or something like [32:18] that. So I've been there 24 days alone [32:23] and then we went to another apartment [32:28] which I was alone again for 10 more [32:31] days. [32:33] And then when I felt like I'm just going [32:36] crazy from being alone, not able to to [32:41] move in the apartment cuz they didn't [32:43] allow me to move. They they [32:46] feared that people can see me [32:50] from the windows. Although it was like [32:53] blocked windows. It wasn't like you [32:55] cannot see the the outside from it. and [32:59] the thoughts [33:00] of my family just didn't get didn't [33:04] allow me any rest. So I I just thought [33:07] to myself that if it will proceed like [33:09] that I will just um go crazy. [33:14] But eventually on on day 34th on the [33:18] 34th day they brought two more hostages [33:22] into this apartment. [33:25] I hope that they will bring like people [33:28] from this area from from the kibbutes in [33:31] the south that are between 30 to 40 to [33:35] my age group. But they they brought Evat [33:39] Davidid and Gilba Dalal which were only [33:42] 22 years old. [33:44] >> They they went to the Nova Festival to [33:47] to have some relax time and to party and [33:51] they were kidnapped from there. And we [33:53] should share that Evatar Davided um we [33:57] many people know him from the video of [33:59] him digging his own grave that was made [34:02] public as we record this uh at the end [34:05] of August uh that was made public in [34:07] early August. [34:08] >> Um just to give context. Yeah. [34:11] >> Yeah. And and you could see that they [34:14] starved him to the extreme [34:17] in a really sadistic and and a cruel [34:20] way. [34:21] >> Yeah. And in that video there is a [34:24] curtain behind behind him and guy is [34:29] sitting there. So so they look the the [34:32] same I believe but they decided to [34:35] separate them for for their [34:37] psychological warfare [34:40] >> but they're down there in the tunnels. [34:42] >> Yeah, the same tunnel I was held with [34:45] them [34:46] >> and we'll get to that in just a moment. [34:48] So, so they bring in um the two guys, [34:51] they bring in Guy and they bring in [34:53] Evatar to you and you're in you're in a [34:56] room. Is that right? In a room in a [34:59] house. Is there anything by the way Tal [35:01] in this room? Are there books there? Is [35:04] there a radio or television or it's just [35:07] what inside? [35:08] >> So, it was the children room. Okay. [35:12] >> Of the owner of the house. Of course, [35:13] the his children and his wife weren't [35:17] there. [35:18] at the moment. So there were mattresses [35:21] on the floor and a drawer of his of his [35:26] boy which was also 70 years old [35:31] and a TV but there was no electricity in [35:34] Gaza. So the TV wasn't [35:39] it wasn't functional and that's it. I [35:42] mean [35:44] >> you were really solitary. There was [35:46] nothing there except your own thoughts. [35:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know I I'm I'm [35:52] thinking much more clearly when I walk [35:55] but they didn't allow me even to to [35:57] move. So it was tremendous. [36:02] I I suffered a lot from from [36:05] this is the first moment in my life that [36:08] I actually told myself that I'm [36:10] suffering. [36:12] And until then it was just something to [36:15] go through you know like [36:18] we have this this phrase that [36:22] if something doesn't kill you it make [36:24] you stronger [36:25] >> right [36:26] >> but but this is the first time that I [36:28] actually suffered for real [36:33] and and the Italian guy were my savers [36:37] in in that sense [36:40] >> so yeah So, continue with the story and [36:42] then I want to talk a little bit about [36:44] your relationship with them, how you all [36:47] got through all of this. At least you [36:49] got through through it because they're [36:51] still going through it right now. I want [36:53] to talk also about just daily life, [36:56] food, the lack of food, hygiene, and so [37:00] forth. So, take us just sort of on a [37:02] timeline first and then we can dip into [37:05] some of those topics. So, so the two [37:07] guys come [37:08] >> and you don't you don't know who they [37:10] are because they're these two young kids [37:13] that went to a music festival and now [37:15] they're hostages. [37:16] >> Until then, I thought that my captivity [37:20] was hard and I received [37:25] really little amount of of food like one [37:29] pa bread with a little bit avocado or or [37:34] meat and so on. And from time to time, [37:37] not more than half a liter of of [37:40] drinking water. But then they came and [37:43] and they were really thin. [37:46] It's hard to say it now cuz you saw Evar [37:50] in the video and it's like like in the [37:52] Holocaust [37:54] pictures [37:58] and what they describe was much worse [38:01] than than my story until then. They were [38:05] kidnapped from the Nova Festival. The [38:08] terrorists just shot on on the people [38:12] that were there that were like tried to [38:15] hide in the bushes and they just went [38:18] from group to group and and murdering [38:21] them with their palachnikovs. [38:24] But then they got to where a Vital guy [38:28] were and their officer told them, "Stop. [38:31] Don't shoot. Let's take them." and they [38:34] grab them. They zip tie them with their [38:36] hands in the back and and in the legs, [38:41] military zip ties. And they throw them [38:45] like a potato sacks into a tender. They [38:48] drove into Gaza, [38:51] stopped inside it, and just [38:54] allowed the civilians to beat the [38:58] out of them. [39:00] They they [39:02] took off their shirts and just beat them [39:06] everywhere. [39:08] And the terrorists just stood there and [39:10] and laughed. [39:12] And when they decided that it's enough, [39:14] they [39:16] shouted to the crowd to to move aside [39:18] and they took them into an apartment [39:23] which h in the first two weeks they were [39:27] ordered h to sit on the floor with their [39:31] faces to the wall pointing to the wall [39:34] with a black nylon bags on their heads h [39:38] with zip ties again with their hands in [39:41] their back and and in the legs and they [39:44] were weren't allowed to speak to one [39:47] each other or to speak at all. And they [39:50] just needed to go like that for two week [39:54] having only half a small piece of bread [39:56] in the morning and half in the evening. [40:00] And [40:03] um it went like that until an officer, a [40:06] a kamas officer came and saw their [40:10] condition which was so so bad that he [40:14] told the ter the other terrorists to [40:18] unleash them from from the zip ties and [40:22] took them to to eat in another place. [40:26] But then he took them back into to this [40:30] group of terrorists and [40:33] now they keep starve starving them but [40:37] without the zip ties and and the plastic [40:40] bag on their heads. [40:43] And they came they came to to to my [40:48] apartment [40:51] to the place I was held in and we just [40:54] started to to to speak to one each other [40:57] and I was so grateful that now there is [41:01] someone else to speak with and I can a [41:04] little bit stop thinking about my family [41:09] face cuz until then I didn't know [41:11] anything about what happened to them [41:14] >> and not only did you not know what [41:16] happened to them, but had you known [41:19] about even the Nova Music Festival at [41:21] that point? In other words, had the [41:23] terrorists told you about it or was this [41:25] the first that you were hearing? So in [41:27] the few first few days [41:30] they brought the radio into the [41:32] apartment and I asked them if they want [41:36] me to tell them what the media in Israel [41:39] is saying about them and they were so [41:44] they were really happy about about what [41:46] they did and they were wanted to to hear [41:48] what the Israeli side is saying. So they [41:50] gave me the opportunity to listen to [41:52] Israeli radio [41:53] >> and because I grew up in in the south, I [41:56] knew the channels. So So I just hear [41:59] then [42:01] when I met a Van guy, I already knew [42:04] that they massacre more than 1,000 [42:07] people and they kidnapped 250 [42:12] or so. [42:15] >> One 251. [42:16] >> Yeah. [42:18] And they also knew [42:22] actually they knew more than me about [42:24] what happened. So we changed [42:29] information. [42:30] >> How was their how was their spirit at [42:33] that point? Tal. [42:36] So they were really happy to meet me to [42:39] meet another hostage and [42:43] they were fearful that they will they we [42:47] will be taken to you know to a dungeon [42:50] or to a small room or something like [42:52] that and [42:54] eventually they came [42:57] to a an apartment of a family. Uh so so [43:01] it was much it was less bad as they as [43:06] they thought it could be. Uh so they [43:09] also [43:11] they were like much more lighted when [43:15] they met me. [43:16] >> Sure. And so you were all together and [43:20] then you were eventually taken though [43:23] into the tunnels. when did that happen [43:26] and if you can walk us through that [43:27] experience tal. [43:29] >> Yeah. So I I would just add [43:32] >> sure [43:32] >> that since that moment that we met [43:36] we formed a brotherhood. [43:39] Uh we had a really really good [43:41] relationship which one one each other [43:44] and [43:47] we find ways to communicate really good [43:51] and you know to share every little bit [43:55] of what we had. And we had really little [43:59] amounts of of food and water and clothes [44:03] and so on. [44:06] And [44:10] it's it's like we we became actually a [44:13] family not not by blood but by share [44:16] faith. [44:16] >> Yeah. [44:19] So we've been together eight months [44:22] above ground in different locations [44:26] among them [44:28] with my h family guards for 21 days [44:36] which was in a sense a really good [44:41] experience but also like really hurting [44:45] one. [44:47] They told me about about my family and [44:49] what went with them and what Nav did and [44:52] Yahel did and and so on [44:56] >> because at that at that point when you [44:59] went into the tunnels you had I know you [45:03] had received a letter from Adi your [45:05] wife. [45:06] >> Yeah. On on my on the fifth day [45:09] I received a letter that describing that [45:12] they were kidnapped and they are okay. [45:16] They managed to survive it and to to [45:18] find strength to to deal with it [45:20] >> and they are about to be released. [45:22] >> Okay. [45:23] >> On the 50 days, the 50th day, [45:25] >> the 50th day of your of your captivity [45:27] or after October 7th. [45:29] >> So, so they were okay. But if you can [45:32] talk about before we get into your going [45:35] to the tunnels, um you did a a funeral [45:40] in your head. [45:40] >> Yeah. for your family and I think that's [45:44] important part of your journey if you [45:46] can share that tal. [45:48] >> Yes. So before a vital Italian guy came, [45:52] I was alone and and I was so [45:57] the the the thoughts about my family [45:59] were so compulsive and and [46:03] they didn't give me any rest and I was [46:08] really mindful about my feelings and and [46:11] emotions to try to be balanced and and [46:14] to find the strength to to like to keep [46:17] going on. [46:19] So I understood that I need to let them [46:24] go and to hold the feeling and the [46:28] reality of of the possibility that they [46:31] were murdered on that day. [46:34] So I sat down in one of the afternoons [46:38] and I imagined myself in our village [46:45] graveyard with all of our community [46:49] behind me and I just gazed into this [46:54] tomb or or grave of Adi and two small [46:59] ones of Nav and Yel. [47:03] And I gave a eulogy to every one of them [47:08] like a full page [47:10] inside my mind telling them that I'm [47:14] sorry about what happened and [47:18] I hope that they are well and I [47:21] releasing them from any strength that [47:24] they might still have so they can move [47:27] on. [47:29] And for me it was [47:32] it was really important to to live it [47:35] inside me [47:37] >> and it was one of the most difficult [47:39] things I I made in in my life. [47:45] But it was also effective in in the [47:48] sense of of letting me move inside [47:52] myself to the extremes. So in one part [47:55] they were murdered in that day and the [47:58] other part they were released [48:02] on October 7th and I don't know where is [48:04] the reality is but I'm I can now hold [48:10] the [48:12] the every possibility of it without [48:16] without [48:19] letting it break in me from within or [48:23] >> it sounds like you needed to do it so [48:25] that you could have the strength to move [48:27] on. [48:28] >> Yeah. Yeah. [48:31] >> All right. Well, I did want to have you [48:33] share that because I think it's an [48:34] important part, as I said, an important [48:36] part of your journey, Tal, um, and how [48:38] you were able to keep it all together [48:41] for yourself through those 505 days. [48:44] >> So, let's go back. So, you [48:48] and your two brothers now, shall we call [48:51] them, right? You and Guy and Evitar are [48:56] taken from one of these apartments and [48:58] you're taken into the tunnels. Can you [49:00] describe that experience? Yeah. So we [49:05] were until that point we were starved [49:09] in in different level of starvation [49:12] uh from one small pa bread every 24 [49:16] hours [49:18] to little amounts of rice like 70% [49:23] cooked rice or uneatable pasta and [49:28] things like that without meat or fresh [49:30] vegetables and fruits. And on on the on [49:33] that subject because I did want to talk [49:35] about food. [49:37] What did you do also for water right to [49:40] stay hydrated at all? [49:42] So we received [49:49] we received water [49:52] like a small bottle of water for two or [49:54] three days. And from time to time we [49:58] just needed to drink undrinkable water [50:01] that are that is supposed to be for [50:03] dishes the the toilet or or for cleaning [50:07] which is salty water or with heavy irons [50:10] inside it with the taste of blood and so [50:13] on. And whenever we could [50:17] and and the guards didn't look, we we [50:21] just took more water if it's possible to [50:25] to have for us cuz cuz it was really [50:28] like half a liter in in [50:32] um [50:33] in those hot days. Yeah. Cuz cuz in the [50:37] south it's really hot until [50:40] December. So it started to cool only on [50:44] December, January. [50:46] >> So you were you were being starved by [50:49] your captors. But I also understand that [50:52] you could smell the food that they were [50:54] eating. [50:56] >> Yeah. So in one of the apartment we were [51:01] kept in uh the kitchen was like near our [51:05] our room and they could cook for one and [51:10] a half hours [51:13] like six different dishes of of food of [51:16] of meals that they actually stole from [51:19] the humanitarian aid because I saw in my [51:22] my own eyes the boxes of of Egypt and [51:25] Turkey and the amirates and and so on. [51:30] And they they cooked those delicious [51:33] things for them. And then they brought [51:35] us like small portions of rice. And I [51:40] tried to argue with them so many times [51:43] that [51:44] um that they should bring us vegetables [51:47] and and meat and [51:50] and you know they they told us that they [51:53] are stealing food from from the public [51:56] from the from their own civilians [51:59] and [52:01] I saw the cans of of meat and fish and [52:03] so on and I told them it's Hamas reply [52:08] to you because you are guarding hostages [52:11] and we should [52:13] get from it and they said oh no you will [52:17] get rice there is plenty of vitamins in [52:20] in like white rice and and that's it and [52:25] no matter how I try to to argue against [52:28] it they they just had their own thinking [52:32] about it [52:34] and they thought that it's it's enough [52:36] that you have enough to survive and not [52:39] more than that. [52:40] >> And what about like hygiene facilities? [52:42] I'm sure they were worse down in the [52:43] tunnels, but when you were in the [52:45] apartments, what was that like? Whether [52:47] it was bathing or using the toilet. [52:50] >> So, we had a toilet above ground [52:55] and from time to time we had soap. There [52:58] were times that we didn't have and every [53:02] time we saw an opportunity [53:06] to take a little bit from them, we took [53:10] cuz they didn't they didn't let us use [53:13] their soap for example. So they used to [53:17] give us a above ground shower every [53:20] seven days but they showered like every [53:24] one or two days and they used to forget [53:27] their soap in in the shower. So we [53:29] immediately went after into the toilet [53:32] and and just took a little bit from it [53:34] so we can wash our hands and and you [53:36] know they they are so not informed about [53:41] bacterias and and [53:44] you know basic biology and we knew that [53:48] diarrhea in this condition can can be [53:52] the the the like gap between life and [53:55] death. So we we tried really really [53:59] carefully to to take care of our [54:01] sanitarian [54:03] condition. [54:06] >> And what what kind of clothes were you [54:08] wearing? Did they give you fresh [54:09] clothes? [54:12] >> So in the beginning they didn't brought [54:15] us and it started to be cold and we just [54:18] needed to be with blankets cuz we were [54:20] in shorts. But afterwards came another [54:24] person which wasn't even a [54:28] military soldier of Kamas. He he was [54:32] from Kamas but not like not from the [54:35] military units [54:37] >> and he had much more stronger religious [54:41] feelings and in their religion they [54:44] should treat prisoners as they treat [54:47] their own family. It's like one of their [54:50] faith. But they most of them aren't [54:53] complied to that and he was. So he [54:55] brought us his clothes and it saved us [54:58] cuz it was so freezing in the in the [55:01] winter [55:03] that without it we could just develop [55:06] diseases and and so on. So, so we we we [55:10] managed to to like gather a little bit [55:12] like another another [55:16] boxer or [55:18] long closes and and so on. So, every one [55:21] of us had like a two shirt and and two [55:25] pants [55:27] that we just washed every time we we [55:29] showered. So, [55:30] >> so you're taken to the tunnels. [55:34] >> Yeah. So they on on June they told us [55:37] that the civilians discovered that we [55:40] are there and we should move and they're [55:43] going to take us to a a better place a [55:45] doctor house and they told us that there [55:49] is even electricity and a fridge inside [55:51] this house and we were so happy and [55:55] we thought that we will receive much [55:58] more food and in in better conditions [56:03] and They gave us new clothes and shaved [56:07] our mustachages so we will look like [56:10] Hamas people without a mustache and a [56:13] big bird and we just went into the [56:18] street every one of us with one guard [56:21] separately and we are looking like them [56:24] and they are speaking in Arabic and we [56:26] are nodding with our head like we're [56:28] understanding them. Of course, we could [56:30] not speak cuz then people will hear that [56:32] we are not [56:34] Palestinians. [56:36] So, we walked like that, every one of [56:38] us. I I walked like 10 or 15 minutes in [56:41] the streets of Gaza in the middle of the [56:43] day. And then came a a an ambulance of [56:47] the Red Crescent with armed terrorist [56:51] inside it. And they put us inside this [56:55] ambulance, put a corona mask on our eyes [56:59] so we won't see anything. and they drove [57:04] I don't know how much time maybe half an [57:06] hour maybe a little bit more [57:08] and then ordered us to get out [57:13] we went downhill again with our eyes [57:18] closed [57:19] and suddenly the atmosphere changed and [57:23] I understood that they took us into a [57:25] tunnel. [57:27] I think something has to sink in for our [57:30] dear uh audience that a Red Crescent [57:34] ambulance picked you up. Okay. But there [57:36] were terrorists inside because we hear [57:39] about um terrorists that use ambulances [57:43] and use so-called you know international [57:45] aid organization [57:47] um vehicles etc etc. So, when we hear [57:50] that a Red Crescent ambulance was [57:53] attacked, you know, the international [57:55] community, so-called international [57:57] community, uh, is all up in arms, but [57:59] what they don't realize after a while is [58:01] that there are terrorists inside. [58:04] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean Hamas [58:07] propaganda is really good and effective [58:12] and it they have help and finance from [58:16] Qatar and from Iran and you know they [58:20] they are much more [58:24] they are so good in that that they [58:27] fooled everyone around the world. But [58:30] Hamas Hamas actually uses civilian [58:33] houses surrounded by civilians on [58:37] purpose. [58:39] They uses ambulances. They uses mask. I [58:42] I I was taken into a mosque [58:46] to to an kind of an interview before I [58:49] was released with 10 full armed [58:53] terrorists inside it. [58:57] You know, I I saw a video of an UNRA [59:02] member, like an UNRA worker stealing a [59:05] corp from Kibutsbury, [59:08] you know, and and then when these people [59:10] are getting hurt, the international [59:14] community [59:16] like [59:18] are angry on on Israel and thinking that [59:20] we are doing a war crime, but it's [59:23] actually intentional. It's like it was [59:26] designed by Hamas [59:28] to be that way. So, so it will hurt [59:31] Israel. [59:31] >> Yeah. They've totally they've not only [59:34] taken [59:36] wonderful people like you hostage and [59:39] those that are there hostage, but in a [59:41] way they've also taken the so-called [59:42] international community hostage, too. [59:45] >> Haven't [59:47] >> Yeah, that's the sad part. I mean, the [59:49] reality is is that when you were a [59:50] hostage, you knew that you were a [59:52] hostage. [59:54] um you know the British prime minister, [59:56] the French prime minister, the Canadian [59:58] prime minister uh and all these uh you [60:01] know purple-haired girls at Colombia or [60:04] Barnard wearing a kafia and a nose ring [60:06] and even those people in the [60:09] entertainment world and media and on and [60:11] on and on. Of course, I'm on my soap box [60:13] right now. The difference is is that [60:15] they don't know that they've been [60:17] brainwashed and they don't know that [60:18] they've been taken hostage by kamas and [60:21] these terrorist groups. So, Anyway, I'll [60:24] get off my soap box now. Now you know [60:26] how I really feel about this whole [60:27] thing. Tal. So you go down and we can [60:30] talk more about the caps in just a [60:32] moment and the people in Gaz because I [60:34] did want to ask you about that. But just [60:35] in terms of um your journey. [60:38] >> So you get there and you're going what [60:40] you think are in the tunnels. Describe [60:43] what that feeling is like because you [60:45] know for those of us that have seen uh [60:48] video of the tunnels, news reports, etc. [60:52] I suffer from claustrophobia. I don't [60:54] know how I could even survive five [60:56] seconds in there. [60:58] >> Yeah. [60:58] >> Um and so take us into the tunnels if [61:01] you would tell. [61:02] >> So in all my time above ground in my [61:06] captivity, I I feared to enter the [61:09] tunnel cuz I understood that it will be [61:12] really deep and close. And I'm not [61:18] um I'm not cluster phobic. [61:22] >> Yeah, [61:23] >> I'm not. But I don't like it. I mean I [61:26] don't like the the the idea that I [61:27] cannot go out and there is no fresh air. [61:30] And I feared it the most. And then we [61:33] are entering this tunnel. [61:36] But I thought to myself, okay, we will [61:38] just go through it and go from the other [61:40] side into this doctor house. I hoped [61:43] that this will be the case. Now we enter [61:46] this tunnel. Then after minutes they [61:48] took off our our corona mask from from [61:53] our eyes and we could see that it's it's [61:56] really dark. I mean in in the tunnels [61:59] there is no external light source. H [62:03] it's really narrow like 1 m wide. I [62:07] don't know how much. I think maybe 30 or [62:09] 40 in something like that [62:13] wide. [62:16] I think something it's 1.8 m long [62:20] height. Sorry. And we just [62:24] kept walking in this monumental [62:27] structure for more than 2 hours. Great. [62:30] Like without stopping. [62:33] And I just hope that soon after we will [62:38] go we will uh exit it in the other side [62:42] into this doctor house. [62:45] But after two 2 and 1/2 hours of walking [62:48] they blindfolded us again. So I [62:51] understood they are taking us to like a [62:53] place that they don't want us to see. [62:54] They also put a tape on our eyes so we [62:59] definitely won't see anything. And we [63:02] walked a few minutes [63:05] more and [63:07] then I heard them speak into another [63:10] hostage and told them that they brought [63:13] him company and it was Omar Vancer [63:17] >> Mhm. [63:17] >> which was released with me on on the [63:19] same day. [63:22] My heart just dropped to my pants in in [63:25] that moment. I'm not sure that you're [63:28] saying that in English, but this is how [63:30] I felt. idea. Yes. [63:32] >> Yeah. [63:34] Cuz I understood that it's final and in [63:39] in my perception I will just we were [63:42] going to be in this tunnel for eternity [63:45] until some miracle will will happen. So [63:49] they put us in this tunnel with Omar and [63:54] they locked the door from from the other [63:56] side. [63:58] And [64:00] it was 12 m long, four mattresses on the [64:03] floor, only a concrete wall and and [64:07] sands on on on the floor. [64:10] And we had a hole in the ground that [64:14] served us as a toilet. [64:17] And [64:18] it was one of the most terrible feeling [64:22] I I ever had. I mean, every time I [64:25] thought about it, the walls just closed [64:27] on me. The oxygen levels were so low [64:31] that none of us, even Omar, which was [64:34] there in these tunnels since October [64:36] 7th, none of us could could breathe [64:40] well. We could not speak well. I mean, [64:43] we we slept most of the time because [64:46] the the the tunnel was blocked from from [64:50] two sides from in one side the wall and [64:52] the other side an iron door and there [64:54] was no not enough oxygen for four of us. [64:58] And the humidity was so so high that our [65:02] closet were clinging into our skins. And [65:06] we received only one shower every 21 [65:10] days in average [65:12] from time to time even 35 days. And I [65:16] don't want to describe what it's doing [65:18] to to your skin when you are in such so [65:22] much dirt and and and so high humidity [65:26] without showering. [65:27] >> But a sh but a shower wasn't a full [65:29] shower like we know we have in our home, [65:32] was it? [65:34] So they build another tunnel. [65:36] >> Uhhuh. [65:36] >> They put a a big tank of water. Okay. [65:40] >> And with a motor they they like directed [65:44] it into a a douche or like you know the [65:47] the thing you put [65:48] >> Uhhuh. [65:49] >> above you in in the shower. And it was [65:51] only cold water. [65:54] But because we we had so little [65:58] showers, [66:02] it was it was a bless. It was like the [66:05] best day of the of the month. [66:07] >> Did you have shower? [66:08] >> To have a shower. So they gave us a [66:13] little bit [66:15] and from time to time even not at all. [66:18] And [66:20] >> why for 20 why every 21 days? I mean [66:25] I mean is that just that's how cruel [66:28] they are? [66:29] >> Yeah. I mean in the tunnels [66:33] they are more military. [66:38] They acting much more like a military [66:41] unit and they are digging tunnels every [66:44] day. [66:45] So they used to shower every 5 to 7 days [66:50] and they decided that 21 or 28 days [66:54] without having a shower it's okay and we [66:58] just deal with that [67:00] >> and and again the toilet was just a [67:03] public in front of everybody. [67:07] >> Yeah. There is no [67:08] >> privacy or anything. [67:10] >> No privacy in the tunnel. [67:12] >> No toilet paper I'm guessing. [67:14] No because [67:17] they are they in their culture they are [67:20] using aid. [67:21] >> Yeah. [67:22] >> They use water they use water to clean [67:24] themselves. [67:25] >> Yeah. So because [67:28] they knew that if we will use water in [67:30] this pole it will stink not only our [67:34] tunnel but their tunnel also. So they [67:37] gave us like wipes like wet wipes to use [67:44] and and that's at least that one thing [67:48] we didn't have [67:51] like [67:52] we we had enough of it. So they kept [67:55] giving us white wives and and it was [67:58] really good because otherwise we could [68:00] like [68:02] >> different different story. [68:03] >> Yes. And the reason why I'm asking isn't [68:05] to get personal or salacious, but it's [68:07] for hygiene reasons because you could [68:09] get really sick in a situation like that [68:12] if there isn't proper hygiene. [68:15] >> Yeah. So, so there were time in in the [68:17] eight and a half months I've been there, [68:21] there were time weeks that we didn't [68:24] have soap at all. and we needed to find [68:28] a way, you know, to do our things there, [68:30] to do our stuff, but also to share our [68:35] meals and to actually eat it. [68:38] >> And that's what I wanted to ask you. So, [68:39] in the tunnel, so you you personally [68:41] were in there for eight and a half [68:43] months. [68:44] >> Yeah. [68:45] >> Uh Omar was in there longer because he [68:47] was in there since October 7th. And then [68:50] Guy and Evatar have been in there from [68:53] the time that you were there until as we [68:57] speak. [68:57] >> More than a year. Yeah. Here in two in [69:00] two months, [69:01] >> right? Which is just unconscionable. Um [69:06] and then talk then about the food [69:08] situation down there. Was it just as bad [69:10] as it was when you were above ground? [69:14] So it it um it got even worse. [69:21] We received [69:25] a food once every 24 hours and it was [69:29] again small portion of of rice or one or [69:34] one and a half pa bread for every one of [69:37] us. [69:41] At least in in those days we ate every [69:44] day every 24 hours. Now as as Evatar [69:49] described in in the video there are days [69:51] like three days without any food at all. [69:55] And they actually [69:58] bragged that they stole humanitarian aid [70:01] and their tunnels are filled to months [70:03] ahead with with food and and equipment. [70:07] And in another occasion they they told [70:11] us I think they it slipped to them. They [70:13] told us that they are starving us [70:15] intentionally. So when we will get out [70:19] for two reason actually the first was [70:21] that if the Gazians are suffering we [70:25] should suffer also. [70:27] Although you know we we are hostages [70:31] in a religious group that's supposed to [70:34] treat us well by their their own [70:37] religious [70:38] >> the captur [70:38] >> their own religion the captures. Yeah. [70:41] >> And the second reason was that when we [70:43] will get out it will [70:47] psychologically affect the public in [70:50] Israel to pressure the government to to [70:52] finish the war and give Hamas everything [70:55] it wants. Mhm. [70:57] >> So you cannot see it on me now, but I [71:00] lost [71:02] more than 27 kilos, which I think is 60 [71:05] lb. [71:06] >> Yeah. I had I I was doing a little bit [71:09] of research and you had gone from 179 [71:13] lbs to 110 lb and then you were 124 [71:18] pounds when the Red Cross finally [71:21] brought you back into Israel. [71:23] >> So let that sink in. You went from 107 [71:26] because they they fattened you up [71:28] beforehand, didn't they? [71:29] >> Yeah. What happened is that Elishabi and [71:33] Benami [71:34] were released and it backfired to them. [71:38] >> Yes. [71:39] >> Because there was like a really public [71:41] and international [71:44] condemn condemn [71:46] >> condemnation. Yeah. [71:47] >> Condemnation. Yeah. And then in the two [71:50] weeks period before my release, they [71:53] just tripled the food and I I gained [71:56] some weight because I was [71:59] >> You lost I mean you you went in and you [72:02] came out 55 pounds less than when you [72:05] came and you're not a big guy to begin [72:07] with. [72:08] >> So 55 pounds is is just extraordinary. I [72:12] I'm just wondering did they um when they [72:16] did this and then we'll go back to your [72:17] time with the guys, but when you were [72:20] told that you were leaving and Omar was [72:23] told that they were leaving, did they [72:24] take you out to a different place or [72:27] were they giving you food and said this [72:29] is your food and then Guy and Evatar [72:32] were not allowed to eat? No. How did [72:33] that work? [72:35] So, uh, we had a a weekend and a half [72:39] together and every one of us received [72:42] more food, but then they separated us. I [72:46] I just want to say in in that to regards [72:52] to that that I actually developed [72:54] scarvy, [72:56] we developed scarvy. [72:57] >> Yeah. You developed scurvy and talk [72:59] about that. Yeah. [73:00] >> Yeah. which which it's a vitamin C [73:03] extreme deficiency and [73:06] >> which we have which we haven't seen [73:07] since like the 1800s. [73:09] >> Yeah. You know, we we we call the [73:11] stellar disease. [73:12] >> Yes. [73:13] >> Um cuz we didn't receive vegetables, [73:17] fruits or meat and fish and only carbs [73:21] in small amounts. So um the body just [73:25] started to eat itself from from within. [73:30] And this is the the severe condition the [73:33] hostages are are in right now. And as we [73:36] saw it even much much worse cuz now lost [73:41] more than half of its of his body weight [73:46] according to professional diet dietarian [73:51] people. It's not assumption. [73:53] >> Yes. [73:54] >> So it's much much worse now. [73:56] >> Yes. Um, and so when you did develop [74:00] scurvy [74:01] and you were clearly sick, um, did you [74:05] have a doctor come see you? [74:07] >> Yeah. So after I told them that my I I [74:12] developed a a severe infection in my [74:14] leg. [74:15] >> Mhm. [74:15] >> And it was so painful that I could not [74:17] walk. So when I told them that I I [74:20] actually cannot move, they understood [74:23] that it's seriously and this is the [74:25] first time I I saw a doctor. H before [74:28] that I had a a for 9 months infection in [74:32] my ear and it just dropped like yellow [74:36] liquid and they didn't allow me to see a [74:39] doctor. So I needed to put like a tissue [74:43] or something in my ear for nine months [74:46] until I was released. But this is the [74:49] first time they gave me a doctor [74:53] and he tried to to see what is going on. [74:56] He he gave me like antibiotics and and [75:02] steroids [75:03] I think you call them. [75:04] >> Yeah. Steroids. H but in the end what [75:07] really helped is that they gave us 7 [75:09] days of vitamin pills [75:13] and [75:14] it it was so effective. We we just felt [75:19] it immediately even Omar and and guy [75:21] which didn't develop exactly scarvy. [75:26] They they felt so so like to the extreme [75:29] and we asked them more but they said no [75:31] this is what we are allowed to give you [75:34] only seven days of of vitamins. [75:38] >> So this this saved us because otherwise [75:41] Vietar and me we probably [75:44] were dead from from it. It's a deadly [75:46] disease in the end. [75:48] >> And so [75:50] you how are you told that you're going [75:52] to be released? [75:55] Um so on um January [76:00] 21st [76:02] >> came one of of [76:04] the guards which really liked Omr [76:09] in since the beginning and [76:13] he told us [76:18] without his commander knowing about it. [76:21] He told us that there is a deal and [76:25] already on the 17th three women were [76:28] released and Omar and me are going to be [76:32] released in the end of this deal. [76:36] So, we had a really really um [76:40] stressful month when we didn't know for [76:44] sure if he's telling us true truth or or [76:48] a lie cuz they did lie to us and they [76:50] tried to manipulated us and and to like [76:55] inflict [76:57] pain and suffer psychologically and [77:00] physically. So, we didn't know for sure [77:02] if if he's trying like to to just [77:07] to to like to inflict some pain or or to [77:11] or actually telling the truth. Yeah, [77:14] >> but but we started to prepare to to do [77:18] to this idea and [77:22] Vatal was really depressed [77:26] about it cuz he was really happy that we [77:30] are leaving but then it means that he [77:32] will stay only with the guy and we won't [77:36] be there and he was really depressed [77:38] that he don't know when they will go out [77:42] and we hope that I I try to cheer him up [77:46] and and say there will be a second deal. [77:48] You will see [77:50] you will come back in few weeks or or a [77:54] month or not I mean not not more than [77:57] that. [78:00] So they were happy for us and happy that [78:03] their families would be able to have [78:06] information about them and they can pass [78:09] messages. [78:11] Um but we also were sad that they need [78:16] to stay there and [78:21] yeah it was like a roller coaster of of [78:25] emotions and feelings the whole month. [78:28] Yeah. [78:29] >> Can imagine. Tal before we get to that [78:32] day that you're released [78:35] um I want to talk a little bit about [78:37] what kept the four of you going [78:40] together. I know that you said you [78:41] created like a family unit, if you will, [78:44] and you gave each other support, but [78:46] just on a day-to-day basis, take us [78:49] through [78:51] >> maybe a typical day or really what [78:54] happened or what transpired there. And [78:57] you know, we should again remind [78:59] everyone that is tuning in that we're [79:01] not talking about sitting on a beach [79:04] together. We're talking about a tiny [79:06] confined space with some mattresses, a [79:10] hole in the ground for the toilet. You [79:12] haven't, you know, you haven't showered, [79:15] it's hot, you can't breathe, you're ill, [79:18] you hardly have anything to eat or [79:20] drink. And it's in those conditions that [79:23] you're having to survive on a 24-hour [79:26] basis, day in and day out. [79:28] >> So, if you can kind of share a little [79:30] bit of that daily life. Yeah. It's also [79:34] 20 or 30 mters underground. It's also [79:37] >> Yes. [79:37] >> which is another psych It's a big [79:39] psychological factor. Yeah. [79:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. [79:43] >> So, [79:43] >> so [79:46] our capttors want us to sleep in the day [79:50] and be awake at the night cuz they are [79:52] digging tunnels every day. [79:55] Uh, so they used to come into the tunnel [79:58] at 9 or 10 p.m. in the night and wake us [80:02] up cuz we didn't have watches. They [80:05] didn't allow us to know what what's the [80:07] time is. They were obsessed of us not [80:10] knowing what is the date and time. But [80:13] we found ways to like keep tracking [80:15] time. [80:16] >> How did you do that? Um, so [80:21] Omar was already in the tunnel and he [80:24] knew [80:27] he had some some ways. So from time to [80:30] time when they came into the tunnel, [80:32] they came with a watch so we could pick [80:34] up the the the time in that moment and [80:38] to compare and to compare it to other [80:40] things. [80:41] One of the important thing they had is [80:44] is they used a heavy machinery to to dig [80:48] tunnels and it had the surrounding [80:52] sounds and we knew that they they are [80:55] starting between 5 to 6 in the morning [80:58] and they finishing they turning off at [81:01] midnight. [81:03] So we woke up and if they didn't come [81:06] with a watch, we just waited until [81:08] midnight and then we said, "Okay, now [81:11] it's midnight." And then we started to [81:14] count until 5:00 in the morning when [81:17] they started to work again. [81:20] >> So they were still digging tunnels with [81:22] all the tunnels that they have already. [81:24] They were still digging more tunnels. [81:26] >> They never stopped for even one day. I [81:29] mean, Omar was there from October 7. [81:32] They didn't they didn't stop even one [81:34] day [81:36] digging tunnels. Yeah. [81:37] >> Wow. [81:38] >> To dig. [81:40] So they woke us up and in a good day [81:44] they will just [81:47] throw on us the food and the water and [81:50] and leave. [81:51] >> Mhm. Erh, it's not actually a good day [81:54] because from time they they came only [81:56] once 20 in 24 hours and [82:02] we could need things. I mean, maybe our [82:05] wet wives [82:08] finished or maybe we need more water to [82:15] to wash our hands and our faces which [82:18] are are again undrink undrinkable water. [82:21] It's not the fresh water that we used or [82:25] other stuff and he will just get in the [82:29] into the room just throw the food and [82:32] leave before we can even say something. [82:36] But I'm also saying that it was a good [82:38] day because in other days he could come [82:40] and shout on us, give us bizarre orders [82:45] and rules [82:48] or [82:49] >> what would be a bizarre order. [82:51] >> So [82:52] >> I mean where were you going to go? What [82:53] were you going to do? You were hostages. [82:56] >> Yeah. But but he bullied us in in [83:00] different ways. So we we had the [83:02] mattresses and and [83:05] because we are we were in the tunnel [83:08] which is not like a flat it's like a [83:11] going in in a little bit like in with an [83:14] angle to it. [83:16] >> Slanted you say? Yeah. [83:18] >> Yeah. Slanted. So we needed to to sleep [83:23] in like [83:25] in in a in how you call it like in a [83:28] train. [83:30] I know way. [83:32] >> You mean like one after the other, [83:34] right? [83:34] >> Exactly. [83:35] >> In a row. [83:36] >> In a row. Yeah. [83:38] >> And [83:39] uh one's foot is on the other one's head [83:43] cuz cuz it was all of them like tucking [83:46] together. And uh we switched mattresses [83:50] cuz one is really close to the hole [83:54] and it's really smelly and the other [83:56] ones having like much more humidity or [84:00] or less and so on. I mean and as I said [84:04] we shared everything. So we did like [84:07] turns but then he came and and he [84:11] ordered us not to switch places for [84:14] example or we are not allowed to take [84:17] off our shirts although it was so hot [84:21] and the humidity was so high and we [84:24] didn't change clothes so our clothes [84:26] were perpetually wet and [84:30] it could I mean things like that. Did [84:34] you ever get new clothes down there? [84:36] Like how did Were you able to wash your [84:38] clothes? [84:39] >> So yeah, we received we had two pairs [84:43] and we received a new pair in every [84:47] shower. So every 21 or 28 days they [84:50] allow us to to switch to change clothes. [84:54] So presumably in eight and a half months [84:55] you could have taken I'm making it like [84:58] 10 showers [85:00] >> in a good [85:02] Yeah, something like that. [85:04] >> I mean yeah in those conditions I mean [85:09] >> it's horrible. And then and then so how [85:12] did you all spend the day? I understand [85:15] you also had a deck of cards but only [85:17] two could play at a time. Is that [85:19] correct? [85:20] >> Yeah. So, no, no, we we actually we [85:23] played four in a row in a row. So, we [85:26] played the [85:30] I don't know how you call it in English, [85:31] but we we played a specific card game [85:35] and the car started really fast to like [85:39] to lose the their colors. So, we needed [85:42] to to find ways to like put numbers and [85:47] and and [85:49] signs on the cars. [85:51] We were really creative in doing that. [85:54] >> How'd you do that? [85:56] >> Uh, so we every time they gave us [86:00] the portion of rice, it was with a nylon [86:03] bag with tapes, like yellow tapes. So we [86:06] saved the tapes and we saved the naidon [86:08] and we we kind of used everything in [86:12] that that we have. [86:14] >> You have what's called a yiddisha. [86:17] >> Yeah. And after a while I [86:23] I discovered a brilliant thing and it [86:27] was that we can use this car to play [86:30] chess. So I made the board from 64 cars [86:34] turning down. So it was a blue and red [86:39] like cards one plus one each other [86:42] >> like a board. Like a board. Yeah. [86:44] >> Like a board. [86:44] >> Yeah. [86:45] >> And then we use the the royalty the of [86:48] the card like the king queen and so on [86:50] as as the [86:53] the the like the ones that you use in in [86:56] the chess. Yes. [86:58] >> And the soldiers were from from [87:02] nylon bags and and tape. [87:05] So we we
