Transcript [00:00] Hi, it's Dan. Over the past couple of [00:02] years, Call Me Back has grown into [00:04] something much bigger than we ever [00:05] expected. A place for clarity, context, [00:08] and honest conversations at a time when [00:11] those things can seem hard to find. [00:14] That's what Arc Media is all about, [00:16] building a truly independent voice, [00:18] which means no one shaping what we say [00:21] or how we say it. To help support our [00:24] rapidly expanding operations, we created [00:27] Inside Call Me Back, our members-only [00:29] feed. If Call Me Back has been [00:31] meaningful to you, and you want to be [00:33] part of what we're building, I hope [00:35] you'll join us. Your contribution goes a [00:37] long way in helping us show up when it [00:40] matters most. You can subscribe at [00:43] arcmedia.org or through the link in the [00:45] show notes. And to our insiders, thank [00:48] you. Welcome to Inside Call Me Back, our [00:51] members-only edition where we open the [00:53] door and let you shape the conversation. [00:55] Thank you for subscribing to the show [00:57] and supporting the Call Me Back podcast [00:59] and everything we do here at Arc is very [01:02] helpful to all of our work here. I want [01:04] to encourage you to submit your [01:05] questions at arcmedia.org, [01:08] and the one thing we ask is please keep [01:09] your questions short. It will increase [01:12] the chance of your questions being [01:14] featured on the show. Today in the hot [01:16] seat, addressing your questions and [01:18] personal dilemmas, is Arc Media [01:20] contributor Amit Segal. [01:22] Amit, welcome back to the Inside. [01:24] >> Thanks for hosting me in the middle of [01:25] August. [01:26] >> Well, you know, politics in Israel are [01:29] crazy. [01:30] Politics in the United States are crazy. [01:32] It's not exactly sleepy August. [01:35] >> Absolutely. I mean, I miss those days [01:37] when [01:39] from Thursday to Sunday nothing happened [01:41] on the news. I think it's it's been a [01:43] decade since then. [01:44] >> Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I completely agree. [01:47] Uh okay, let's jump into our insiders [01:50] questions here. Libby from Jerusalem [01:52] writes, "Ooh, we're cutting right to [01:54] it." All right, Libby writes, "Last week [01:56] Amit Segal published a column arguing [01:58] that Ben-Gvir [02:00] is a disaster for Israel. [02:02] However, a year ago I heard him say [02:04] multiple times on call me back that he [02:06] thinks that Smotrich and Ben-Gvir's [02:08] impact is overstated. What has changed? [02:12] >> Okay, so first of all I think the [02:13] Insider is [02:15] knew in advance about my opinion because [02:18] I think last our last meeting here [02:20] dealt with my lessons from October 7th. [02:23] And the number one lesson was that I no [02:25] longer believe in the full right-wing [02:27] coalition. And I meant specifically for [02:29] Ben-Gvir. Now, I want to emphasize the [02:32] difference between the alleged twins [02:34] Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. So they are [02:36] paired together because they ran [02:39] together and because they are around the [02:41] same age, coming from the settlements [02:44] and promoting a very very hawkish [02:47] right-wing policy. Now, here's the [02:49] difference I would like to explain it. [02:53] I I do not speak about Ben-Gvir's [02:55] influence. I speak about Ben-Gvir's [02:58] damage, a reputational arson. And I I'll [03:01] explain exactly the difference. [03:04] I think for for one that a Palestinian [03:07] statehood [03:09] will endanger the very existence of the [03:11] state of Israel because I do not think [03:13] that between the river and the sea [03:15] Israel can allow itself to have a [03:17] hostile armed Palestinian state [03:20] overlooking Tel Aviv, Netanya, and just [03:23] you know, 5 minutes walk from Jerusalem. [03:25] And that's why I'm willing to pay each [03:28] and every price in international [03:30] currency [03:32] when it comes to blocking the option [03:34] because the alternative is not to exist. [03:38] On the other hand, I'm not willing to [03:40] pay a single dime for merely [03:44] PR campaign of Ben-Gvir himself. So, I'm [03:48] for deeds and not for bad publicity. But [03:52] you're not saying [03:54] >> I I cuz I think I I I do think people [03:57] could listen to what you're saying [03:59] and and and take away from what you're [04:00] saying, you don't have a problem with [04:02] Ben-Gvir's policies, you have a problem [04:04] with Ben-Gvir's style of politics. [04:07] >> My main problem with Ben-Gvir is that he [04:09] doesn't have any policy whatsoever. I [04:12] mean, when you take a look at the things [04:15] the facts on the ground, Ben-Gvir did [04:17] almost nothing. Yes, he did change the [04:21] the conditions of terrorists in Israeli [04:24] prisons. And I I think it it it was a [04:26] very important reform. Before the [04:28] October 7th, they enjoyed, you know, [04:30] free phone calls, for instance. They [04:32] held cell phones in in in in in in the [04:34] prisons, etc. But [04:36] he did nothing to help, for instance, [04:39] building more uh Jewish communities in [04:41] Judea and Samaria, unlike Smotrich. All [04:43] he did, the reason he's a an [04:46] international celebrity is not because [04:48] of his deeds, which are equal to zero, [04:51] because he cares nothing about facts, [04:53] only about the PR. I have a problem with [04:55] the noose pin [04:57] his uh um uh party members were and he [05:00] himself. [05:01] >> For for our listeners, for people who [05:02] don't know, so so he he's pushed a [05:04] policy for the death penalty [05:07] uh for terrorists and he and and and to [05:09] sort of celebrate or campaign for it, he [05:12] created these lapel pins with a with a [05:14] little noose. [05:15] >> I I'll give an example, because this is [05:17] exactly the case. [05:18] I I'll I'm putting aside the question of [05:21] capital punishment. Had Ben-Gvir been [05:24] sanctioned for promoting capital [05:27] punishment for October 7th terrorists, [05:30] I would fully support it. [05:32] But when you cause Israel a terrible [05:36] reputational damage only for wearing it [05:38] with do without doing anything about it, [05:41] we call it in economy externalities. You [05:44] enjoy a little profit, a little revenue, [05:47] and then the entire society pays a huge [05:51] the huge cost. [05:52] >> I have a couple of questions. One is [05:55] how do you think Netanyahu has has dealt [05:58] with managing Ben-Gvir? Because on the [06:00] one hand, I hear you and I and I hear [06:01] your your searing critique of of [06:03] Ben-Gvir, [06:05] but he's only able to be as influential [06:07] and powerful as he is. I take your [06:09] point, not necessarily on a from a [06:10] policy standpoint, but in terms of the [06:12] outsized impact he's having on the on [06:14] the international scene. [06:17] Because [06:18] he's a member of [06:20] Netanyahu's government. [06:22] >> Yes, but there is a reason why he is in [06:24] in the room where it happens. Like the [06:26] phrase from Hamilton. Why? Because there [06:29] was a moratorium on sitting with [06:31] Netanyahu from the center-left. [06:33] Post 2022 elect the 2022 election for [06:35] instance, both Eisenkot, Gantz, and [06:37] Lapid refused to sit with Netanyahu and [06:39] they knew that the alternative is [06:41] Ben-Gvir sitting there. So, they [06:43] believed, I guess, that they had [06:46] believed that the the worst [06:48] it's going to [06:49] to to be for the government like or the [06:52] coalition, the best is for their own [06:54] good. So, it's like I a ripple effect. [06:58] The center-left became very very [07:00] extreme in his hatred to Netanyahu. [07:04] And that's why Netanyahu resorted to [07:06] form a coalition that in the past he had [07:09] never dared or wanted to to form. [07:13] >> You said earlier that the center-left [07:16] put a put a ban on sitting with [07:17] Netanyahu, so he didn't have a a choice. [07:20] Now, we had Yair Lapid on this podcast [07:23] oh, I don't know, it was maybe a little [07:24] less than a year ago. And he claims, [07:27] again, I I wasn't there. I was certainly [07:29] wasn't privy to the conversations [07:30] directly, but he claimed on the podcast [07:32] that he told Netanyahu after October 7th [07:34] that he would and bring Yesh Atid with [07:37] him. He his party, he would join [07:39] Netanyahu's government and give him all [07:40] the cushion in the world [07:42] to maintain a majority maintain his [07:44] government so long as he sidelined [07:47] Ben-Gvir and Smotrich that he Lapid [07:49] could not serve alongside Ben-Gvir and [07:51] Smotrich. So, I know there was this ban [07:53] on serving with Netanyahu, but I think [07:55] that was more of a pre-October 7th [07:57] phenomena. I think after October 7th [07:58] when there was this big there were these [08:00] calls for unity and there was a sense of [08:02] coming together and but but but but for [08:04] some [08:05] center center left party leaders [08:08] serving with Ben-Gvir and Smotrich was [08:10] just unacceptable. So, they would give [08:12] Netanyahu cushion, they would give him a [08:13] majority, they would give him a [08:14] government, but they couldn't do it [08:16] alongside those figures. So, [08:19] is that a more accurate [08:21] characterization of what happened? [08:23] >> I'm not really sure. For instance, Gantz [08:25] and Eisenkot joined the coalition [08:27] without having Eisenkot without having [08:29] Ben-Gvir and Smotrich leaving it. What [08:31] was the moral [08:33] justification [08:35] for sending Smotrich and Ben-Gvir to the [08:37] opposition at the very same day in which [08:40] hundreds of their supporters died in [08:43] battle and few hundreds more to die in [08:46] the in the months and years to come. [08:48] There is no justification. National [08:50] unity governments in in Israel's history [08:53] always included the main opposition [08:56] party joining the current or the [08:58] existing coalition. So, I I I don't want [09:02] even to think what would have happened [09:04] had Netanyahu announced 6 hours after [09:07] the massacre had begun that he's sending [09:10] Ben-Gvir and Smotrich out to the [09:11] opposition. You know the share of [09:13] casualties from within the national [09:15] orthodox sector. It doesn't it didn't [09:17] make any sense. It was a populist [09:19] suggestion that in my opinion implied [09:22] that Lapid was not interested in taking [09:24] part in the coalition, but we have a you [09:27] know a very sophisticated blame game. [09:29] >> Okay. All right, I want to go to Jake [09:31] from Philadelphia who writes and this [09:33] one cuts close to the bone. So, if you [09:36] uh [09:36] if you want to handle it delicately, [09:37] that's fine. Uh Jake from Philadelphia [09:40] writes to us, "I recently read that Amit [09:42] Segal's own brother [09:44] has attacked him publicly for [09:46] criticizing settler violence. I'm [09:49] curious whether Amit could say more [09:50] about the type of conversations he and [09:52] his family were having before it became [09:55] public." [09:56] >> So by the way, he gave a series of [09:58] interviews against my op-ed against Bank [10:01] Ver. So uh it's a sort of a he rivalry. [10:05] >> Yeah. [10:07] >> Okay. My brother believes that settler [10:09] violence does not exist, that it [10:11] emanates from the failure of the country [10:14] and the army to protect the settlers. [10:16] And I [10:18] can't turn a blind eye to a phenomenon [10:21] that in my opinion is both immoral and [10:24] destructive for the very existence of [10:26] the settler movement itself and for the [10:28] state of Israel. [10:31] >> That's it for our sneak peek today. If [10:33] you want to catch the full episode, [10:35] please subscribe to Inside [music] Call [10:37] Me Back by following the link in the [10:38] description or by going to arcmedia.org. [10:42] That's arkmedia.org. [10:45] Your support is what allows us to do [10:47] what we do here at Arc Media. I hope to [10:50] see you there. If Call Me Back is where [10:52] you come for honest conversations about [10:54] Israel and the Jewish world, [music] [10:55] please hit subscribe and also share it [10:58] with a friend. And if you missed our [11:00] last episode, it's worth going back for. [11:02] See you next time. [11:04] >> [music]
This is a sneak peek from the members-only edition of Inside Call Me Back. Dan is joined by Ark Media contributor Amit Segal to answer a listener question about the column he wrote calling Ben Gvir a disaster for Israel, why he holds Smotrich to a different standard, and why he argues that Israel pays an international price for a minister who sells publicity while delivering almost nothing on policy.
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For the full episode, subscribe here: https://inside.arkmedia.org/
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You can access the full episode here - https://inside.arkmedia.org/, where Dan and Amit answer listener questions about:
- Why Amit turned on Ben Gvir, and why he judges Smotrich differently
- When Amit’s own brother attacked him over settler violence
- What Shas is really selling with its campaign ad about a soldier coming home
- Ofer Winter, Hili Tropper, and the killing zone of the Israeli center
- Why no Israeli leader will say “two-state solution” out loud
- Would Netanyahu ever serve under Eisenkot in a unity government?
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