Transcript [00:17] Okay, we are now live. So, thank you all [00:20] for joining us for this joint Jewish [00:22] Chronicle and Conservative Friends of [00:24] Israel panel. Uh know that we've got a [00:26] very busy schedule, so thank you all so [00:28] much for being here. Uh, I'm Lauren Bel. [00:30] I'm the political editor of [00:41] uh, and widely the UK [00:46] relationship. To my left, we've got [00:47] Richard, director of which is the [00:54] Israel Communications and Research [00:55] Center spectator. And then we've got MB [00:58] MP for just down the road in S Cofield, [01:00] but also former international [01:01] development secretary and holder of many [01:03] my other senior ministerial roles [01:05] including [01:09] most recently as deputy foreign a lot of [01:12] different expertise and it's really [01:14] really grateful that we've got such high [01:15] level people with us and I'm going to go [01:17] and there will be sort of time for [01:18] questions at the end so if you've got a [01:20] really good question we will definitely [01:21] come to you though I do stress your life [01:24] stories may be very very interesting I [01:26] don't want to hear them in the questions [01:27] save that for Afterwards, if they're [01:29] going to be short, succinct, if you can [01:30] say if you've got any institutional [01:32] affiliation or sort of local [01:34] association, you share your name, that'd [01:35] be very helpful just so we can refer [01:37] back to who you are and what not. [01:39] But I look we we're at a sort of strange [01:42] phase between relations between the UK [01:45] and Israel and a very sort of [01:47] significant deterioration in the [01:48] relations between the two countries um [01:51] labor including culminating most [01:54] recently in the sanctions imposed by Ed [01:57] Milliband at the Commons uh most [01:59] recently and at the labor quality [02:02] conference last week. Our coverage [02:03] focused on uh much of what Ed Midland [02:06] said seemed to be welcoming u and sort [02:08] of saying that pro Palestine [02:10] demonstrators up their country were on [02:11] the right side of history and right and [02:13] uh in the pages of the JC we may have [02:15] noticed that there was quite a lot of [02:16] time devoted to Israel not so much time [02:19] devoted to Iran. Uh you know this was [02:22] before we knew had full confirmation of [02:24] uh what they may or may not have been up [02:26] to at our fair. Um, so while I think [02:30] this is the sort of format we find [02:31] ourselves in before this kind of very [02:33] dramatic set of elections in Israel and [02:36] I kind of want to go to you first Andrew [02:39] because you were you're a senior [02:41] minister while the conflict was going [02:42] on. Could you have imagined the [02:45] relationship between Britain and Israel [02:47] getting to where we are now? [02:51] >> However long you want. [02:53] >> Well, good afternoon everybody. It's [02:54] nice to see some uh very old audience [02:58] and a good solid audience as well at [03:01] this very important Conservative party [03:03] conference. I really want to make uh [03:05] just two or three uh points. The first [03:09] point I want to make is that in all my [03:13] uh nearly 40 years when I first entered [03:15] the House of Commons in just under 40 [03:17] years ago, it's a very long time. I have [03:19] never seen anything like the grotesque [03:22] irresponsibility of the Green Party. [03:26] >> [applause] [03:30] [applause] [03:31] >> and they will, I hope, be scorned uh by [03:35] everyone, but in particular by all those [03:38] people who joined the Green Party [03:40] thinking this something to do with [03:41] climate change and saving the planet and [03:44] are now faced with this quite [03:46] extraordinary decision, which let us be [03:49] in no doubt whatsoever, uh basically is [03:52] saying that Israel should not exist and [03:54] we should be absolutely clear about [03:56] this. It is uh moves the debate onto uh [04:00] a very extreme position. It is a a [04:04] decision that uh will endanger uh large [04:08] numbers of people. We've seen the [04:10] attacks that have been made on the [04:12] Jewish community over the last year. [04:15] I completely agree with what our [04:17] chairman said about the contrast with [04:19] the words of more politicians about uh [04:23] Iran in comparison to what they have had [04:25] to say about Israel. Um and I can only [04:29] say that the motivation for this [04:31] decision that the Green Party has made [04:33] is anti-semitic. There's no other word [04:35] for it than we should all be aware [04:37] [applause] of. [04:42] And I I proudly intend to make it [04:45] absolutely clear now in a way I haven't [04:47] felt the need to do before in British [04:49] politics that I am a scientist. [04:54] [applause] [04:59] >> Now the the second thing I want to say [05:01] and actually for these opening remarks [05:03] I'll content myself with this point is [05:06] the contrast uh between what this [05:09] government is doing and what the last [05:13] government is doing in respect of the [05:15] relationship with Israel. And again we [05:18] should be [06:00] uh with the House of Commons on a weekly [06:02] basis hearing and answering the [06:05] arguments principally from the [06:09] Labor left on this subject and I want to [06:12] bear that there are a number of things [06:15] the Labor Party has done which we would [06:17] never have done. The first is to [06:19] recognize Palestine when they did. Now, [06:22] it is the policy of the Conservative [06:24] Party to recognize Palestine when the [06:27] time is right. And the time is right [06:29] when recognizing Palestine would help [06:32] move the debate towards a successful [06:34] two. And to give it up by the British [06:37] government in the way they did, [06:39] frivolous way they did again to engage [06:41] with their backbenches was a very very [06:44] foolish thing to do and it was not in [06:46] the national interest. Second thing, we [06:48] would never have imposed an arms embargo [06:51] against Israel. Why? Because not so long [06:54] ago, our milit our military, our armed [06:57] forces were helping Israel avoid the [07:01] weapons attacks of drones and the [07:03] missiles that were coming from Iran. And [07:05] it seems to me to be a quite [07:07] extraordinary short-sighted measure to [07:09] impose an arms embargo with a country [07:11] which is a very close ally with which we [07:14] uh were spending British treasure and [07:17] British military effort uh to uh [07:19] protect. But let me be clear when David [07:22] Cameron was foreign secretary we had [07:25] fierce discussions with the Israelis. uh [07:28] we uh did not agree with some of the [07:30] things they were doing in Gaza and uh we [07:34] made it quite clear that we would follow [07:36] international humanitarian uh law. And [07:40] as a matter of fact uh when I was in the [07:42] foreign office there was no suggestion [07:44] that Israel was breaking international [07:47] humanitarian law in respect of Gaza. [07:50] Now, some of you may think that's a [07:52] surprise, but I can tell you when the [07:53] lawyers looked at it, it was clear that [07:56] the kinetic activity in Gaza was not [07:58] breaking international humanitarian [08:00] laws. So, so there, ladies and [08:03] gentlemen, you have it. This is a a very [08:05] close ally. With your close allies, when [08:08] they know you're on their side, [08:09] fundamentally, you can have fierce [08:10] discussions about the direction of [08:13] policy. I have no doubt how I would vote [08:16] in the election is in Israel on October [08:18] the 27th if I was an Israeli citizen and [08:21] it would not be for uh Netam Yahoo. But [08:24] Israel is an ally. Our intelligence [08:27] relationship with Israel is absolutely [08:29] fundamental to Britain's security. I [08:32] think it is already public knowledge [08:34] that Israeli intelligence played a part [08:37] in helping deal with what happened at [08:39] the RAF station in Gstersha. And I say [08:43] finally this point, we should not allow [08:46] Labor to forget it. The the foolish [08:49] decisions that they have made, they are [08:52] made not in the British National [08:54] Interest, but in the interests of the [08:55] Labor Party. Thank you very much. [08:58] [applause] [09:04] Thank you very much for your open [09:06] remarks. And before I come to you, Tony, [09:07] I just wanted to um pick up on one of [09:09] the things you mentioned on the [09:11] intelligence sharing. I mean, obviously [09:13] you're limited in what you can reveal to [09:14] us, but just how important was that [09:17] intelligence relationship with the [09:18] Israelis when you were in government in [09:20] terms of how vital is it to have that [09:24] relationship for British national [09:26] interest? Well, I I I obviously I have [09:28] no idea apart from what has been [09:30] publicly made available uh in respect of [09:34] uh the RAF station. uh but certainly [09:37] when I was in government the [09:39] relationship between British [09:41] intelligence and Israeli intelligence [09:43] was absolutely fundamental I would say [09:46] to the security of our country. [09:49] >> Thank you. And Talia I want to come to [09:51] you now to talk more about the the [09:53] domestic issue. I think sort of you [09:56] parliamentary court respondent reporter [09:57] as well covering how Israel has been [10:00] discussed in the British parliament and [10:02] what what have been your key [10:03] observations really from what goes on [10:06] there seemingly on a weekly basis. Well, [10:08] we we everyone knows there are Israeli [10:10] elections at the end of the month, but [10:12] there's an election coming up that's [10:13] going to be also pivotal, I think, in [10:16] terms of the British relationship with [10:18] Israel between the governments, which is [10:20] the bi-election later this week in [10:22] Hman's Congress where you have Zaplansky [10:26] standing for the Greens against Labor [10:29] and that people are more inclined now to [10:30] think that that Labor [10:34] is going [10:38] the savings of which [10:40] Zionist Zionism is becoming a stick to [10:46] to beat British Jews with even [10:48] anti-Zionist Jews who aren't protected [10:50] by the Green Party because they vote [10:53] against an amendment to do it's a [10:55] shocking point in time I think for for [10:57] our politics everyone um so this [11:00] bi-election is going to be important too [11:03] because foreign [11:06] policy you know is a foreign policy [11:08] debate and it's now become a domestic [11:11] issue. That's what we're seeing in the [11:13] growth of the Greens in what Andy [11:15] Bernham is doing the Labor Party and [11:17] sanctions. And Andrew is completely [11:19] right about the timing and doing it [11:22] before the Labor Party conference. Uh [11:25] because Andy Bernham didn't see [11:27] sanctions on Israel as risk. He saw that [11:30] as an electoral asset. He saw that as an [11:33] opportunity for the Labour party to [11:36] fight back against you know they had [11:38] independ independence take some of their [11:40] seats at the general election. They've [11:42] lost a seat in bi-election to the [11:44] Greens. He saw that as an electoral [11:48] asset and that should be completely [11:49] worrying especially when my the [11:52] political editor of my magazine [11:55] uh reported that Burnham and Ed Milland [11:58] ignored the security advice that they [12:01] received about these sanctions because [12:04] they wanted to press through with it for [12:06] political reasons. So there was advice [12:08] from the ambassador to Israel, the [12:11] national security adviser Jonathan [12:13] Powell and MI6 all proposed the risks [12:17] and put to the prime minister and the [12:19] foreign secretary the risks that would [12:21] come with sanctions and they still went [12:23] ahead and I think we we can all [12:26] understand why that was. And if we're [12:29] living in a time where security risks [12:31] are pushed aside for political gain, I I [12:35] think I think we're in a really bad [12:36] moment. So that's nice personal in [12:39] >> and I think kind of it's worth [12:40] reflecting on the fact that you know we [12:41] do have in this country five MPs elected [12:44] on explicitly pro Glaza platforms and [12:47] it's it's quite extraordinary really [12:49] when we watch up the from the [12:50] parliamentary press gallery kind of get [12:52] a unique seat to look down on the [12:53] commons and you do see week after week [12:56] the kind of Labour MPs or other MP MPs [12:59] from other parties popping up to sort of [13:00] do what seems to me to be like a kind of [13:03] scripted question for social media um [13:06] about Gaz and this is how tough I'm [13:09] being on the Israelis. What have you [13:10] kind of have you made any similar [13:12] observations? [13:12] >> Yeah, I mean you can you can go on on [13:14] Hansard and all the things that [13:16] parliamentarians have said and you can [13:18] search for every MP you know you could [13:20] put Gaza in or you could put benefits uh [13:24] and and Gaza might come up like 150 [13:26] times and benefits might be like three [13:28] if you're lucky. Um and you and you see [13:31] that solidly not only with God's own [13:33] independence but across some labor and [13:35] peace as well and the the movement is is [13:38] massive because they are worried about [13:41] their boot. Uh and and that [13:43] unfortunately is what is what this comes [13:45] down to for the the government right [13:46] now. [13:47] >> I mean I remember it quite well because [13:48] it was my first uh first ever front page [13:50] splash when I joined the JC. But it was [13:52] um we found out that in the year [13:54] following October 7 uh Israel had been [13:57] mentioned more in the commons than the [13:58] NHS had. and it was nearly like double [14:00] which was yeah I was sort of flattered [14:03] when I found it out but yeah when you [14:05] sit in week after week uh you're not [14:07] totally surprised um Richard we'll come [14:09] to you now you've heard how much Israel [14:12] uh features in British domestic politics [14:15] does uh does Brit feature in Israel's [14:17] domestic politics at all [14:19] first of all before I ask it's going to [14:21] be short answer um first of all thank [14:23] you to uh to CFI and to the Jewish for [14:26] putting putting this event on the short [14:28] answer is Not really. Um I mean I don't [14:30] know how many people here saw the uh the [14:32] Nyang speech at the UN um just just last [14:35] week. You weren't the audience. The [14:37] audience was quite clearly for domestic [14:51] to present him as incredibly ortor and [14:55] and an advocate. And [15:04] and he used that platform in order to [15:06] present it his case. Still, let me just [15:10] tell a little bit about the Israeli [15:12] politics. I moved to Israel. I came just [15:14] yesterday to to visit the UK. Um I [15:16] enjoyed my train journey up and seeing [15:17] the green and pleasant land. Um which is [15:20] important for the for the UK here. I [15:22] moved to Israel 27 years ago after a [15:24] couple of months in early 2009 uh 1999 [15:29] that first Netanyahu was breaking up and [15:31] I volunteered to serve with a [15:34] at the time [15:37] it's [15:42] Dia [15:46] the daughter less than four is [15:53] and she was on that list was woken up [15:55] abruptly one morning [15:58] my bedroom to wake me up wagging his [16:00] fingers to tell me how misguided I was [16:03] because [16:06] so [16:09] my room I uh I reflected on two or three [16:12] things from that first of all lockd [16:14] one's door um in Israel it wasn't always [16:16] the uh the known establishment at the [16:18] time but things have things have changed [16:20] then also think first of all it [16:22] resonates to the longevity of Netanyahu [16:24] it was still around 30 years ago and [16:26] it's still there today by the way as a [16:28] political movement the Sahaba phenomena [16:32] 100 years of a political movement [16:33] tracking back to religious uh to the [16:36] revisionist Zionism 100 years and [16:38] they've had five leaders Jabotinsky [16:41] began Shamir Shaon and Bivid that's it [16:44] that's incredible stability over o over [16:47] a hundred-year period and certainly so [16:50] the I tell the story because first of [16:51] all Nissany who was loomed large for [16:54] three decades over Israeli politics but [16:56] it was an example then that still holds [16:58] true today that despite some the [17:00] popularity it's a very divisive subject [17:03] he still retains a core maybe between a [17:06] fifth and a and a quarter of the Israeli [17:09] public but support the liquood out of [17:11] tribal loyalty and I think that loyalty [17:14] surpasses politics so for all those here [17:16] who may wishing for change. I first just [17:18] wanted to caution and maybe bring down [17:21] some of that optimism that that he could [17:24] remains a very strong brand and [17:26] Netanyahu in some people's eyes at least [17:28] is still a very capable and maybe the [17:31] the he's he often sees himself as the uh [17:33] the smartest guy in the room. In many [17:36] rooms he is he he is that but still as a [17:39] even in his advanced years is the [17:41] ultimate campaigner. So I would I would [17:43] caution ruling him out. just maybe two [17:45] or three comments and then I'm happy to [17:47] hear take hear questions but I think [17:49] when you're looking out on Israeli [17:51] politics now there are three things to [17:53] uh to bear in mind first of all it's a [17:55] battle of the blocks that are beyond the [17:57] individual party vote it's about [17:59] reaching that crucial number of 60 of 61 [18:02] seats that's all the game is about I [18:04] would also caution that unlike in [18:06] British politics where you have the [18:08] results of the election next day it's [18:10] quite clear who is going to be in in the [18:11] government pause because Israel takes [18:14] when the once the results are through [18:16] there is then a consultation process [18:18] with the president and 28 days whoever [18:20] is given the first role to to try and [18:23] form the government in all likelihood [18:24] according to the polls and the polls are [18:27] quite diverse depending on who you [18:28] listen to leftwing or rightwing or [18:30] centrist media and I'm happy to discuss [18:32] that further if people are are [18:34] interested but uh but the polls are [18:36] suggesting at the moment that there is [18:38] that neither block is going to have that [18:40] crucial number of 61 and therefore there [18:42] are all sorts of permutations [18:44] that that can play out in terms of [18:46] forming a government. I think I would [18:48] draw one's attention to the comments of [18:50] the president Herzog who said he will do [18:52] everything he can to avoid repeat [18:54] elections. Obviously we Israel suffered [18:56] through that political instability um [18:58] six five six years ago and he will do [19:00] everything he can to ensure that some [19:02] form of government is formed and [19:04] therefore someone is going to have to [19:05] give. Now the other second factor to [19:07] look out for is the jeopardy around the [19:09] threshold 3.25 25 the equivalent of four [19:12] seats. Last time round, if people [19:14] recall, the leftwing party merits and [19:16] the hardline Arab party, one of four [19:18] Arab parties by the way, Ballad, failed [19:20] to cross the threshold and that led to [19:22] hundreds of thousands of votes wasted. [19:25] This time it is the right wing that has [19:27] a similar element of jeopardy. Both the [19:29] religious Zionist party and the new [19:31] party of Israel, the people of Israel [19:33] led by former IDF general of Winter. [19:37] both of those parties are close to the [19:39] threshold and the fact that both of [19:41] those parties over or neither of them do [19:44] will have an enormous effect on the [19:46] overall proportion of the vote. So [19:47] that's a the second thing to look out [19:49] for and the third point I would say is [19:51] over turnout itself. Israel has a very [19:54] high politically motivated and active uh [19:58] electorate 70% last time came round. [20:01] It's anticipated that it's going to be [20:02] higher this time round. the some of the [20:05] key areas to look out for and when [20:06] you're looking at reporting I think [20:08] first of all on the south and the areas [20:10] that were so tragically affected three [20:12] years ago by the [20:16] onber the 7th a lot of those kibble Tim [20:19] were very were either hard left or or [20:22] left-wing supporters kind of the [20:24] elements of the probably the closest [20:25] thing you get these days to the founding [20:27] generation of Israeli society people who [20:29] were who were connected to the [20:31] agriculture and to the land itself [20:34] where those people will vote. [20:38] Similarly, other towns in the south [20:42] which are affected [20:45] by the by the by the tragedy, it will be [20:47] fascinating to see where they go. The [20:49] Arab vote [20:52] which last time round was much lower [20:54] than the national 70% I said of the 54%. [20:57] There is now an element that I've heard [20:58] from uh from from Israeli Arabs who are [21:01] politically motivated to get that vote [21:03] up much closer to the national average [21:05] if not equal and or even even surpassing [21:07] it. There is now recognition that there [21:09] is a qualitative distinction between bad [21:12] and worse. And although they were [21:13] reluctant in the past to be supporting [21:15] kind of centrist Zionist figures, they [21:17] now understand the danger of this [21:19] current government surpasses that and [21:20] they're more um aligned and favorably um [21:23] favorably positioned to support a more [21:25] centrist government. So I think that's [21:27] that's a very important aspect. And [21:28] finally the ultraorththodox vote. I mean [21:30] the one of the biggest issues we can [21:32] again we can talk about the issues on [21:33] the current agenda but the the induction [21:36] of the ID of the ultraorththodox into [21:37] the into the IDF is probably the one of [21:40] the top political issues that every [21:41] political party is talking about [21:43] actually with quite similarity to be [21:45] honest in what they in what they're [21:46] proposing. But the deal is is that you [21:48] need to form a coalition this time [21:49] effectively without because they're not [21:51] going to vote for it themselves. But how [21:53] they're able to rally and to galvanize [21:55] their own Israeli public. this will [21:58] public within the Alfred Orthodox world [21:59] which isn't publishing so well but is [22:01] incredibly brave and that it's putting [22:03] it's putting out there the idea that not [22:05] every Orthodox should be automatically [22:07] studying in the religious seminaries but [22:09] going and serving this world. So there [22:11] are there are movements within the [22:12] community to look out for as well. [22:14] >> Thank you very much Richard and very [22:16] inepth [22:20] [applause] [22:20] given people and a lot of sports [22:23] reporters looking to covering it. I [22:25] think one thing that fascinates us [22:27] looking at Israel uh from afar is the [22:31] sort of the this Netanyahu's opponents [22:33] seem to be very keen to place the blame [22:36] solely for October 7 on him and they [22:39] happened on his watch in the same way he [22:41] has you know tried to blame other uh [22:42] political leaders for stuff that's [22:44] happened on their watch is that cutting [22:46] through to a larger degree than previous [22:50] you mentioned sort of cutting through in [22:52] uh towns like Ashkalon or Beva Is there [22:55] an element of people saying oh do you [22:57] know what you know yeah maybe he was [22:58] responsible or is it seen by his [23:00] supporters as a kind of for once of a [23:02] better description major media smear so [23:04] I think the country is very divided on [23:06] that question if you if you listen to um [23:08] to supporters of of Netanyahu they would [23:11] tell you that the the weakness that [23:13] Israel exhibited in the in the weeks and [23:15] months leading up to October the 7th the [23:17] disproportional response of the the [23:19] Kaplan movement and the protesters that [23:21] is what triggered for Israel's enemies [23:23] Israel's weakness While obviously [23:24] Israel's opposition say the exact [23:26] opposite that it was the uh it was the [23:28] irresponsible um policies that were [23:31] trying to promote around judicial reform [23:33] and judicial upheaval if some people [23:35] call it that was the trigger that [23:37] destabilized the country. So the country [23:39] is really divided on that question and I [23:41] actually think that despite the movement [23:43] within the political blocks people are [23:45] pretty stagnant in where they fall down [23:47] on that issue and there is very little [23:50] movement within those blocks. What we're [23:52] going to see now and predict in the next [23:54] two or three weeks in the run-up to the [23:55] election are lots of the block and the [23:58] the block for change um pro-change [24:00] parties who are right leaning of [24:02] appealing exactly to those liquid voters [24:05] making that case that you say of kind of [24:07] putting that responsibility on on [24:09] Netanyahu squarely not letting him get [24:11] away with that and trying to move people [24:13] from the from the government's block [24:15] into the opposition which we will we'll [24:17] see how that plays out. Thanks for that, [24:19] Richard. And I'm going to go through the [24:21] panel with some questions and then we'll [24:23] open it up to the audience. So, Andrew, [24:25] if I can start with you. Um, [24:29] if Netanyahu does come back as prime [24:31] minister, um, how significant a [24:34] deterioration do you think there will be [24:36] between uh, Britain and Israel uh, [24:39] further? And do you think that will [24:42] happen under a conservative government? [24:44] Well, to your last point, uh, definitely [24:47] not for the reasons I sort of set out in [24:49] my opening remarks. Um, of course, one [24:53] of the tragedies in a way for those who [24:55] hope that Netanyahu will no longer be [24:57] prime minister is that Labour played [24:59] straight into his hands by the decision [25:01] they took, you know, last last week was [25:04] very another reason why it was such a [25:06] foolish um mistake to to make. I mean, [25:11] you know, if he is uh returned to [25:13] office, he is sanctioned by uh [25:16] democracy. Uh I just point out one of [25:19] the only democracies in that part of the [25:20] world. Um and he will have to be dealt [25:23] with properly by the government. But the [25:25] mood music because of what has happened [25:28] although of course he may start by [25:29] thanking uh Ed. [25:37] There are rumors of of [25:42] the good might take which I sincerely [25:46] hope they won't but which will just make [25:48] the matters worse. [25:50] >> And Tally in terms of if I'm going to [25:52] ask you on a more domestic side when it [25:55] comes to these regulation and the focus [25:58] here on within British you know within [26:01] parliament within MBS focusing on [26:03] Israeli politics. How much worse do you [26:06] think it might get? And also [26:09] when that's on Britain's Jewish [26:11] community, what sort of we're already [26:13] sort of, you know, who would have [26:15] thought that, you know, we were living [26:17] with, you know, the Jewish community [26:18] being the subjects of a terror attack [26:20] actually happening. Do you think that [26:22] kind of situation might get worse? I [26:24] mean, you know, we what we saw with the [26:25] language on Israel and the coarsening of [26:27] the languages. The rabbi at Heaton Park, [26:29] the rabbi walker, he sort of linked [26:31] explicitly the demonization and [26:33] delegitimization of Israel when Jihad Al [26:36] Jami, the terrorist who massacred in [26:37] Heen Park, said they're killing our kids [26:39] as he went into Eden Park and committed [26:42] murder. So, what what do you think? So, [26:43] what do you make of of all of that and [26:45] sort of how the the kind of importance [26:47] of language as it were when it comes to [26:50] Israel despite the passions in the room? [26:52] Yeah, I mean we can't ignore the context [26:55] in in which the Labor government have [26:57] been making these decisions on [26:58] sanctions. It doesn't mean that you [27:01] can't criticize Israel. It doesn't mean [27:03] you can't criticize the policies of the [27:05] Israeli government or not like Netanyahu [27:07] or anything of the sort, but you do have [27:10] to consider the effects of of certain [27:12] government policies on the people of [27:15] your country. And we've seen this year [27:19] antiseic incidents go up again. Uh the [27:23] CST does fantastic work trying to keep [27:26] us safe uh as we attend synagogues, as [27:30] our children attend schools. But the [27:34] reality of that is that they are a [27:36] charity. They are a charity that is [27:38] doing their best to keep us safe. As the [27:41] threats towards the community increase, [27:43] there is only so much that they can do. [27:46] When when I went to synagogue um I'm [27:49] Manchester originally and when I went to [27:52] synagogue on Roshashana I was uh my my [27:56] dad organizes the the security there. So [27:58] so he was out pretty much the whole time [28:01] wearing his stab vest as people were [28:03] coming in and out when we were trying to [28:06] leave synagogue after service was over. [28:08] We couldn't just walk out like normal. [28:11] We had groups of 10 allowed at once just [28:14] in case there was a car ramming that [28:16] happened. Not not everyone would be out [28:19] on the street and and be made through. [28:21] These are the steps that we are taking [28:23] as British Jews in our community. And [28:27] you have to the government and any [28:29] political party when they're when [28:31] they're discussing these things when [28:33] they're formulating policy they do need [28:35] to take that into consideration because [28:38] what you will see otherwise is a [28:41] revolting descent like the Green Party [28:43] and you will see Jews targeted for being [28:47] Zionists and that that that is [28:50] unacceptable. Jews targeting for [28:52] anything is unacceptable may I add? But [28:54] but you are seeing a really really [28:57] worrying spiral I would say. Um and [29:01] yeah, I mean British Jews are doing [29:03] their best, but but not I I just can't [29:07] imagine it. [29:08] >> Yeah, I think we're already at sort of [29:10] significantly high levels of British [29:12] Jews deciding to move to Israel, which [29:14] uh if it's in response to a fear of lack [29:18] of safety is uh is rather depressing in [29:20] my personal view. Um Richard, if I could [29:22] come to you on sort of there's been [29:24] after the Green Party's decisions uh to [29:27] yesterday with the Zionism racism uh [29:30] motion, the government has since banned [29:32] Zach Palansky from enter ever entering [29:35] Israel. So even though it may not [29:36] feature as significantly, there's still [29:38] that kind of determination to say, "Hang [29:40] on a minute, no." Uh is there kind of [29:44] going to be extra attention paid to [29:45] British British politics since as a [29:47] result? Again, I'm not convinced and I'm [29:49] also not convinced that that's the [29:51] that's kind of a helpful approach. I [29:53] think it gives him a to wear a badge of [29:55] honor um to be able I don't think he was [29:57] planning to come anytime anytime soon. [30:00] Um and again, I would talk from from my [30:02] professional perspective kind of I [30:04] represent Bython which again supports [30:06] bilateral support uh um bipartisan [30:09] support um for Israel. So we are we're [30:12] in a difficult spot there. But the [30:15] fundamental principle for us is that we [30:17] encourage everyone whether it's [30:18] politicians, journalists or anyone else [30:20] in any other civil society role to come [30:23] to Israel and see it for themselves. [30:24] There is no there's no substitute for [30:26] coming to see it for engaging with [30:28] people. There is so much of a of a crude [30:30] stereotyping of what [30:34] Israeli [30:37] and obviously to bring as many people as [30:39] possible to Israel. all of you given the [30:42] opportunity to come if you haven't to [30:45] come and visit with yourselves and so I [30:47] think there was a they missed a trick [30:48] may I understand [30:51] that you have to play out politics but [30:54] uh but imagine if a if a government [30:55] saying of kind of being being a little [30:57] bit condescending to [31:00] come come for a week's trip and come and [31:03] come and engage with the issues come and [31:06] visit well [31:09] wouldn't that be wonderful allow him to [31:11] do that. Abs, absolutely. Absolutely. We [31:14] take people from every every political [31:15] party if they want to come in usually in [31:17] in coordination with the friends of [31:19] Israel groups um because they work as [31:21] our as our partners and we would [31:23] encourage we would encourage him and [31:24] anyone to come to come. [31:26] >> Thank you. And one thing I'm going to [31:29] throw out to the panel more generally [31:30] before I go to audience questions is [31:33] there has there seems to be some [31:35] elements on the right of a kind of [31:36] deterioration of support for Israel. [31:38] seeing kind of the kind of language from [31:41] JD Vance the vice president of the [31:42] United States uh far more critical some [31:45] of his more uh his friends in Tucker [31:48] Carlson and others are taking quite a [31:49] bit more robust language how sort of [31:52] I'll go to you Andrew how sort of [31:54] challenging is it to be a friend of [31:56] Israel on the right and is there kind of [31:57] that relationship between Israel and [32:00] conservatives I'm a bit under a bit of a [32:02] threat in a way it hasn't been before [32:04] >> well I don't think so but uh I mean I [32:07] don't feel it myself as someone on the [32:09] center right. Um but I think the the [32:13] names you mentioned from America that [32:15] that is very important because we know [32:17] that America in any movement towards a [32:20] two-state solution in any reinvigoration [32:23] of those negotiations America is [32:25] absolutely critical. So I think you know [32:28] Israeli opinion frankly I don't think [32:31] will take huge account of what uh [32:35] British people are saying. I agree with [32:38] um our friend Leo about the impact of [32:40] British Britain's power as it were. It's [32:43] a it's a real tragedy because we have [32:45] deep roots in that part of the world. We [32:47] understand the issues very well. Britain [32:50] has always been a force for good in uh [32:53] that area in recent [snorts] and modern [32:56] times. And for us to marginalize [32:58] ourselves in the way that I'm afraid [33:00] this government has done is is deeply [33:01] disappointing. But what uh what JG Vance [33:05] and what uh Taka say in America the [33:08] influence on American opinion that is [33:10] important. Um but above all it's [33:12] important because America has [33:15] considerable effect in Israel. It's the [33:17] only country in the world that can move [33:20] the dial in Israel and for the future. [33:24] and everyone must uh must continue to [33:27] work hard towards the two-state solution [33:30] because in spite of what people say that [33:32] is the only answer that there will be in [33:34] the end and America will be very [33:36] important. [33:38] Um I I guess my my contribution on this [33:40] would would almost be more on the sort [33:42] of Jewish sentiment than than we already [33:44] we've spoken about the Green Party and [33:47] the Zionism racist motion all these [33:50] elements of of politics on the left on [33:53] and on the far left but there is [33:56] worrying comments and associations on [33:59] the far right too and things coming out [34:02] of Restore Britain that should also be [34:05] caused for concern. And you know, the [34:06] Conservative Party has always been a [34:08] steadfast friend of of the Jewish [34:10] community of of the existence of Israel. [34:13] And and I think it's sort of a [34:15] responsibility all to make sure that [34:19] that any sort of any part of that far [34:22] right movement doesn't find its waying [34:25] itself in into the general right because [34:28] that would be a really sorry state. Uh [34:31] but we must as well as being aware of [34:33] those on the far left and and the [34:35] destruction and that that could cause we [34:37] we must also be aware and speak out [34:40] about some of the things uh emerging [34:42] from the far right team. [applause] [34:51] I'll just commentary directly about the [34:53] Americans, but I think it's a wider [34:54] piece in this country as well to uh to [34:58] pollsters pollster in particular. They [35:00] have never seen a disparity on a [35:02] political issue as in Israel that is so [35:04] divided on a generational gap between [35:06] the uh the under 30s and the o over 50s [35:09] and I think that is something that is a [35:11] a grave cause for concern. I mean, part [35:14] partly an explanation could be that it's [35:16] all relativism of when you approach and [35:17] when you enter the story. And I remember [35:19] full well when Israel had to build the [35:22] security barrier in response to the [35:24] vicious wave of uh of suicide bombing [35:26] and terrorism. that if you come to the [35:28] story, you only see checkpoints and [35:31] walls and blockades [35:37] historical perspective which I think [35:41] is sorely lacking with younger people [35:43] and that's I think a challenge to all of [35:44] us [35:47] right so we are now going to come [35:52] so put your hands up if you do want to [35:53] ask a question and as a short questions [35:56] Um if we come to you just remember to [35:59] say your name and institutional [36:01] affiliation to the gentleman in the [36:03] corner there. [36:04] >> So uh first I'd like to just take the uh [36:07] roving mics corrobbited just to [36:10] something that's broken on Twitter in [36:11] the last few minutes. So uh Israeli [36:13] media reporting that senior British [36:14] officials have made it clear to Israel [36:16] that if the British consulate in East [36:17] Rus British diplomats are expelled, the [36:20] United Kingdom will respond by expelling [36:21] 27 Israeli diplomats along with their [36:23] families in Britain. I'd just like to [36:25] get the panel's reaction to that and [36:27] then [36:31] um if you'd like [36:33] >> well and that that it is to that that I [36:35] was alluding when I said that uh there [36:37] were rumors that there would be further [36:40] measures taken uh by the British [36:42] government and uh that will be a fatal [36:45] fatal error of judgment to escalate the [36:48] positions on what is already as I [36:50] described into my opening remarks a [36:52] policy designed for consumption by the [36:54] Labour Party and not acting in Britain's [36:57] national interest, they will be doubling [36:59] down on that error were they to do that. [37:02] So I very much hope sad heads [37:04] particularly, you know, sad heads in the [37:06] foreign office too will will explain to [37:08] ministers why that would be a [37:09] catastrophic error of judgment. [37:12] >> I [37:13] I think Andrea is completely completely [37:15] right. I'm just happy with the applause, [37:17] but I think that those warnings will [37:20] likely happen and yet again they will [37:22] likely be overruled because you have a [37:25] bi-election later this week in which [37:27] Gaza is playing hilariously for a [37:30] domestic bi-election, a key issue. So [37:34] yet again the likelihood is that despite [37:37] warnings from officials with decades of [37:39] experience security services these will [37:42] be overruled by politicians for [37:44] political gain because there is a [37:46] bi-election that that's it's as simple [37:49] as that. and region. Is there sort of in [37:52] terms of the embassy in east the [37:53] consulate in East Jerusalem, sorry, is [37:55] there kind of was I vaguely recall there [37:57] being some court challenge to one [38:00] potentially one of those decisions, but [38:01] I could be wrong. [38:03] >> I'm not familiar with those with those [38:04] details. What I'm saying in in broader [38:06] strokes is that this is kind of a [38:08] perfect storm because it's happening [38:09] within an election cycle on the on the [38:12] Israel side. And what it really needs on [38:14] both sides is call aheads to prevail and [38:16] to remember that they are both key [38:18] strategic allies to each other and that [38:21] there needs to be a diplomatic [38:22] conversation instead of kind of [38:23] announcing these things in public and [38:25] kind of going for these uh for these [38:27] gotcha moments on uh on within kind of [38:30] public diplomacy to kind of return to [38:33] basic private diplomacy. It's a tragedy [38:35] unfortunately that Israel doesn't have a [38:36] currently an ambassador based here [38:38] because that would go a long way to [38:40] represent the case and to kind of and to [38:42] find it through close meetings to to uh [38:45] to to close the circle on this thing to [38:47] draw a line under under this spat before [38:49] it escalates further and to remind [38:51] themselves that the the relationship is [38:53] important to both sides. [38:55] >> I should just there is an extremely good [38:57] new charge who has arrived and he will [39:00] make a great contribution. [39:03] >> Okay. Uh John Wilin from Islington [39:06] Conservatives. We do exist. [39:13] >> Earlier this year, we've seen Colombia's [39:15] new president Aados or SBA [39:18] take three days to reverse all the [39:21] anti-Israel measures of his Marxist [39:23] predecessor. [39:25] Um, if kind of if Fabio Bolson becomes [39:28] the next president of Brazil, which [39:31] looks likely, we'll probably see [39:32] something similar. What does the next [39:34] conservative government need to do to [39:37] repair relations with Jerusalem? [39:40] Great question. [39:42] >> We'll do questions in rounds of three, [39:43] so you keep hands up. Uh, lots of [39:48] >> Thank you. Um, you talk about the [39:50] two-state solution, but isn't that [39:52] deluded? The Palestinians have never [39:54] wanted a two-state solution from day [39:56] one. And when they were given Gaza, look [39:59] what they did with it. No one believes [40:01] two-state solution is viable anymore. [40:04] Surely we should come be coming up with [40:05] new ideas. There are plenty of new ideas [40:07] out there. [40:12] >> Gentleman here in the middle. [40:19] >> Thank you. Shing Conservatives. Um, one [40:22] election which seems to get relatively [40:24] little coverage, at least from what I've [40:25] seen, but I understand is happening are [40:27] the Palestinian elections, which I [40:28] gather are happening in late November, [40:30] but they've been delayed about [40:34] 17 [40:38] from what I understand [40:41] the potentially going to win those [40:42] election. I'm grateful for the panel's [40:45] thought what that would mean for [40:46] situation in Israel and also for the UK [40:49] Israel relationship. Well, let's uh [40:50] let's start with a question on [40:52] Palestinian J if you want to jiggle with [40:55] that. [40:55] >> So, I think your your your point is very [40:57] accurate. 22 years into a four into a [40:59] four year term says it all. And I think [41:01] if I was betting at this moment, then [41:03] it's going to they're going to be [41:04] postponed again. So, we shouldn't uh we [41:07] shouldn't rush to uh to to draw any [41:09] conclusions there. I think it's a real [41:11] shame that there are no kind of other [41:13] organizations. It seems to be a right [41:14] now binary between fat who have failed [41:17] on the West Bank and Kamas who are a [41:19] terrorist organization and responsible [41:21] for so much of disaster brought on their [41:23] own people as well as as well as the [41:24] suffering of of Israelis and it's a [41:26] shame that there has not been an [41:27] emerging a new generation of leadership [41:30] on their side that has put forward a [41:31] case and I believe I mean I have the [41:33] privilege of engaging with uh with with [41:35] with people in Ramala and there is a [41:37] generation out there that should be [41:38] talking to who are more problematic who [41:40] are recognizing and unfortunately the [41:42] fear factor I mean this is still [41:44] operating let's be clear under a [41:46] autocratic despotic regime and so both [41:48] in Gaza and the West Bank allowing [41:50] Palestinians to have to urge uh openly [41:54] criticize and have free free thoughts [41:57] and free opinions is still desperately [41:59] lacking but we can we we live and hope [42:01] and I think it's a right question to [42:03] raise that we should it should be on our [42:05] agenda if it doesn't get cancelled then [42:06] we'll see the how the results play out. [42:09] And Andrew, I want to go to you on this [42:11] and but also ask a kind of more broader [42:14] point about the Palestinian Authority [42:15] because I think you know everyone with [42:18] talking about the two-state solution, [42:19] it's the Palestinian Authority, but you [42:20] know, as pointed out, they are somewhat [42:22] undemocratic, but also there's some more [42:25] sinister policies in terms of pay for [42:27] slay where uh the families of terrorists [42:29] receive funds and uh issues around the [42:33] sort of hateful uh content, anti-Jewish [42:35] content in curriculums in schools there. [42:38] So, how if you take us behind the scenes [42:40] in the foreign office, how do we kind of [42:42] engage with the Palestinians given this? [42:45] And what kind of do we ever put the [42:47] screws on if they don't do some basic [42:50] reforms that uh we might we might as a [42:52] country think they ought to? [42:54] >> Well, I I just make two points to the to [42:57] the question. It's a very good question. [42:59] Um the the first is that at some point [43:02] history teaches us that at some point [43:05] good uh new leaders will emerge. It's [43:10] taking a hell of a long time. Um uh your [43:13] point about society in Ramala and the [43:16] the changes amongst the younger [43:18] generation I think is a very interesting [43:20] one. So so in in dealing with this issue [43:24] you must always refuse to be cynical and [43:27] try to be optimistic. And I think that [43:30] that's an important point to note. The [43:31] the other thing is this another [43:33] incredible error of judgment by MBA is [43:37] that they are now cutting the contact [43:40] with Ramala and the British development [43:43] money that was being used to try and [43:46] instill the sort of senuse of how a [43:50] responsible government would behave. Now [43:53] that money I can tell you has been [43:55] extremely well spent although it is [43:57] incredibly difficult because people have [43:59] gone from Britain to try and explain the [44:02] nuts and bolts of how you provide for [44:04] good government and it's very good [44:07] expenditure and the Labor government has [44:09] it. So I'm afraid that is yet another [44:12] error judgment and will will make the [44:15] problem which you very successfully [44:17] identified even more difficult to make [44:20] uh progress on. [44:22] T, did you want to chip in on that, [44:24] John? Um, [44:24] >> yeah, I I might respond to the to the [44:26] rare Islington conservative. [44:30] I know you mentioned, you know, the idea [44:31] of repealing uh various things and and [44:35] whether that could happen. Um, I think [44:37] when it when it comes to British [44:38] politics on the right, it very much [44:40] could happen. I think Nigel Farage had [44:43] said that he would undo the damage by [44:45] Labor, to which one would assume that [44:47] means repealing sanctions. Kevin Bnock [44:50] obviously at the time when these were [44:52] made said that it was the wrong [44:53] decision. Um I don't think she's added [44:56] any more in terms of whether the party [44:58] would repeal it. I don't am I being [45:00] correct? I don't think she has. Um but [45:03] you you definitely can see a world in [45:06] which were the Conservatives back in [45:07] government. I think they would they [45:09] would look at the harm that has been [45:11] done and try to rectify that. For sure. [45:16] We do [45:19] >> the next the next Conservative [45:20] government uh would return to the very [45:23] sensible policies of the last [45:25] Conservative government which means that [45:27] we would immediately scrap the arms [45:29] embargo for the reasons [45:38] of Palestine. [45:45] that we changed and reestablished what [45:48] was so clearly the case under the [45:51] Conservative government that you can [45:53] have your differences and you know [45:54] reference to the West Bank where you [45:56] know there are questions for the Israeli [45:58] government to answer in the West Bank. [46:00] But we would we would be very clear that [46:02] Israel is a close ally of this country [46:06] and should be respected particularly as [46:10] democracy of course but should be [46:12] respected and we would restore uh much [46:14] of what the Labor Party has vandalized [46:17] in that relationship. Richard, I'll come [46:19] to you with this but with a slightly [46:21] different twist of the question in terms [46:22] of um the alliances that Israel is now [46:27] seem to be building with some rightwing [46:28] parties as to Colombia, Brazil, [46:31] Argentina's looked problematic, [46:33] especially for some of us in this [46:34] audience. And how kind of much is it a [46:38] domestic matter that kind of love it [46:39] with Malay or is it sort of is it just [46:42] that or is there more kind of depth to [46:43] it? First of all, I want to comment on [46:45] the kind of if it's an elephant in the [46:47] room specifically about the Falklands [46:49] because uh after certain I think tweets [46:51] by the prime minister's son caused a lot [46:54] of constonation in this country and [46:56] amongst uh and amongst Israeli [46:57] supporting conservatives of what the [46:59] hell. So I actually I spoke to the prime [47:01] minister's office that day and they were [47:02] very to clarify that sons do policy for [47:07] the for the fathers and that that is [47:09] nothing to do with Israeli government [47:11] policy and for and in fact in a rare [47:13] moment at the moment of Britain Israel [47:15] cooperation. It's actually a joint [47:17] Britain Israel project working in [47:19] Falklands about oil exploration etc. So [47:22] let's be let's be quite clear that [47:24] Israel has no no intention of changing [47:26] changing that policy and the UK UK and [47:28] Britain should rest assured on that. [47:30] Otherwise, more broadly speaking, I [47:32] mean, Israel is and I think a kind of [47:34] one of the foundational principles of [47:36] Zionism is for Israel to have a place [47:38] amongst the nations and therefore and [47:40] this goes doubly in terms of um Israel's [47:42] regional partners and as we've seen kind [47:44] of in the Abraham Accords and even kind [47:46] of behind the scenes as well, those [47:48] alliances and shared interests and [47:50] values within the um Israel's Arab [47:52] neighbors are fundamentally important. [47:55] And this is something that the vast [47:56] majority [47:58] of Israeli public and the vast majority [48:02] political. More broadly, Israel is about [48:05] making those uh opening avenues and [48:08] opening relations without prejudice [48:10] across the world. We see very [48:11] interesting relationships going on [48:13] across [clears throat] Africa for [48:14] example and I think in in South America [48:16] as well and the the the president of [48:19] Argentina just happens to be I suppose [48:21] the most flamboyant and kind of um [48:23] headlining. [48:24] >> Yes. Yes. Exotic example of of that [48:27] support but it's uh and so therefore yes [48:29] it gets the the headlines but Israel's [48:31] interest alliances across the world. [48:33] >> And if we could now go to Lance's [48:36] question on the viability of the [48:37] two-state solution post October 7th. I [48:40] think there's kind of been polling in [48:41] Israel saying, you know, there've been a [48:43] decline in in support for it. And in, [48:45] you know, would you what would you say [48:47] to that both in terms of the domestic uh [48:50] reaction in Israel, but also potentially [48:52] if were to pursue something like that [48:54] officially? Um how damaging would that [48:57] be diplomatically? Listen, I think it's [49:00] not on the [49:04] it's not on the agenda or it's not it's [49:06] not yet cooked yet in terms of if there [49:08] was to be um any any form of return to [49:11] serious negotiations. It takes two to [49:13] tango obviously and there is no appetite [49:15] from the Palestinian side either to come [49:18] back to those talks. So I think it's a [49:19] it's a non-starter for right now. [49:21] Israeli public are still mixed and [49:23] divided on this because the the essence [49:25] about the connection the intrinsic [49:27] connection of the Jewish people to Judea [49:30] and Samaria is one point but but to [49:33] contradict that and to challenge that is [49:35] also that most Israelis have no desire [49:37] to control a Palestinian population in [49:40] perpetuity either. So how do you square [49:42] that that circle is essentially what the [49:45] political debate is even not I mean [49:46] really jumping ahead it's not yet we're [49:49] not there yet but when we do that's all [49:50] how it will be framed I would look for [49:52] example when Napali Bennett who's one of [49:54] the who has his own right-wing [49:56] credentials that is now one of the [49:58] leaders of the the group of change he [50:00] would talk about minus or autonomy plus [50:03] and to find some form of way of kind of [50:06] after the basis on the Oslo report so [50:08] people are familiar that already areas A [50:10] and B were handed over to the [50:11] Palestinians for self-ruule and what is [50:14] left is 60% of area C which includes [50:16] both Jewish settlements and a little bit [50:18] of I mean a very small Palestinian [50:20] population but essentially that's where [50:22] the negotiations were left off and so [50:24] there are still some scopes to talk [50:26] about that but even if we're talking [50:28] area A and B and expanded sea and some [50:30] form of Palestinian control it's [50:38] quite imaginative [50:42] into a defense pack [50:47] with [50:50] Iran at be some form of movement to [50:54] because otherwise the other the other [50:55] alternative which Israelis also don't [50:57] want [50:59] is a is a dual state of a bational state [51:03] and that is the end of the of the [51:04] Zionist project as well. So it's uh it's [51:06] it's it's on ice at the moment because [51:08] it's it's not really orientative [51:10] thinking is needed there. [51:12] >> I have often wondered how practically [51:14] supporters of a bonane solution like in [51:16] the Green Party would uh merge the Alex [51:18] and Martins Brigade and the IDF but you [51:19] know leave that to my eyes [51:24] in terms are we hung up on our thinking [51:26] of the two-state solution as the perfect [51:28] solution? Are we sort of not stuck in [51:30] that framework and not thinking outside [51:32] the box when reality the two-state [51:34] solution prior to the 80s it was talk of [51:38] Jordan being a Palestinian state and I [51:41] think Jordan significantly uh the [51:43] population of Jordan is significantly [51:44] Palestinian. Um are we sort of being [51:47] stuck in our thinking on that? [51:49] >> So just I can just pick up the point [51:50] that was made I think the elephant in [51:53] the room about the Falkland Islands. I [51:55] had the great privilege uh last year of [51:58] visiting Fork and Island and inspecting [52:01] the Royal Air Force, the Royal Navy and [52:04] the military defenses that are in place [52:07] there. I would not advise the [52:09] Argentinians to be so as to have another [52:13] crack at um on the two-state solution. [52:16] Of course, uh, today everyone can [52:20] understand why [52:22] in Israel the idea of having Somalia [52:25] next door to you is is a no starter, of [52:28] course. But the only solution that is [52:31] available to this issue which has [52:34] poisoned the well of goodwill uh now for [52:38] uh several generations. The only [52:40] solution that is available is a two [52:43] state solution. two states living in [52:46] peace behind secure uh borders. And [52:49] there are many people who believe that [52:51] part of the uh runup to the dreadful [52:55] events that took place on October the [52:57] 7th was the uh the the progress that was [53:02] being made through the Abraham Accords. [53:04] I think I'm still the chairman of the [53:06] all party group on the Abraham Accords [53:08] in the House of House of Parliament. But [53:10] but but the progress that was being made [53:12] on those was a direct threat to the [53:15] interests of the terrorists in Hamas. [53:21] It would go over their heads and create [53:23] new relationships. So, so what I what I [53:26] would say is that uh you know often the [53:30] darkest hour is the hour before dawn the [53:34] inifard uh which took place before just [53:37] before the progress that was so nearly [53:39] made at Oslo. I completely agree with [53:41] what Richard said about the the land [53:44] arrangements which would be doable with [53:47] goodwill and a determination to reach a [53:49] solution on both sides. So, so let's not [53:52] let new ideas always welcome of course [53:54] but let's not move off the basic [53:56] foundations and fundamentals which are [53:58] that the only solution is a two-state [54:01] solution. [54:04] anything to add or [54:05] >> um not not a huge amount to add other [54:08] than I I I get why it sort of feels [54:10] delusional right now and which is made [54:14] the point you know it's just not it's [54:17] just not on the cards but that doesn't [54:19] mean that we should lose hope about the [54:22] potential like Andrew said earlier [54:24] there's there's always the chance of [54:26] newerations [54:30] users who who might be able to to change [54:33] what's going on. And maybe it's [54:35] delusional, maybe it's hopeful, but um [54:37] I'm going to try and be an optimist. Um [54:40] >> and let's see if there's any more [54:42] questions from you guys. So um let's go [54:46] for the lady over there [54:50] and you just state your name and uh [54:52] where you're from. [54:54] >> Thank you. [54:56] Thank you. I'm Hannah David from [54:58] Planning Futures. Um whatever the result [55:01] um in Israel, the election could bring [55:03] heightened tensions here, particularly [55:06] if Netanyahu is and government's [55:09] direction continues. Um are we prepared [55:11] for a possible rise in anti-semitism [55:13] after the election and what should the [55:15] government, police and councils be doing [55:17] now? [55:19] >> Thank you. So it was about uh increased [55:22] tensions domestically, potentially a [55:24] rise in anti-ensism should uh Netanyahu [55:26] get reelected. Um, can we just keep your [55:28] hands up if you do want questions? [55:30] Gentleman over there in the corner [55:37] association and committed to [55:42] um I studied Israel for many years. I [55:44] lived there in the '9s and there was a [55:46] real clear differentiation in the [55:47] politics of parties in the 90s. you [55:50] could see mathematics [55:52] and you know yesterday now only [55:54] strengthens people's views [55:58] um and made people hardened the Israeli [56:00] and I just wonder if in the forthcoming [56:02] elections is there much difference now [56:04] between the part society for [56:10] 30 years so is there a chance and a risk [56:12] that he'll he'll be retained as prime [56:13] minister getting into bed with Benny [56:15] Gans for example or yes and that he'll [56:18] still be the main pivot [56:20] Will anything ever change? [56:22] >> Thank you. And while I take one final [56:24] question, [56:30] >> should be given given the natural fear [56:32] of having Somalia next door to you. [56:35] >> What's your name, sir? Sir, [56:36] >> William Salivan. Um, given the natural [56:39] fear of having Somalia next to you, [56:41] surely the solution would be to give [56:42] Gaza back to Egypt um and the West Bank [56:45] back to Jordan who are there legitimate. [56:48] I mean in international law those are [56:50] the countries that were the previous [56:53] to which they [56:55] >> kind of one in the previous question [56:58] about Lanc about the Tuesday solution. [56:59] So we'll take one other question but we [57:01] will take your point with him. Thank you [57:02] very much. Um gentleman here please. [57:06] >> Thank you very much. Um I'm going to be [57:08] kind of very sensitive about my question [57:10] but the vast majority of originals [57:12] obviously play a very integral role in [57:14] this country like me. But I wanted to [57:15] ask a difficult question which is do you [57:18] think that this government is doing [57:20] enough about Islamist anti-semitism [57:28] from Westminster Church. [57:31] >> Um Andrew I'll let you kick off on that [57:33] one. Fire question to [57:36] >> Yeah. We'll come to each but we'll start [57:37] from fires first and then Yeah. So is [57:40] the government doing enough in our form [57:42] specifically? Is it mismatism? [57:43] >> It's quite closely linked to the first [57:45] question. I think about rather we'll [57:47] merge those two together. [57:48] >> Okay. So so I mean the answer is that [57:51] it's it's difficult to see what would [57:53] happen as a result of the uh election. I [57:56] mean if Netanyahu were to be returned I [57:59] think a s there would be a sense of [58:00] frustration which could lead to to uh [58:03] illegal acts uh taking place. Uh all I [58:07] can tell you is that the Conservative [58:08] Party in Parliament will rise up on mass [58:13] in fury if the government does not take [58:16] tackling anti-semitism [58:19] after the election on any very seriously [58:22] indeed and protect our Jewish uh [58:25] communities throughout the whole country [58:30] [applause] [58:33] which feeds into the the the the final [58:36] question, are they doing enough? Um, I [58:39] think I think that they have endangered [58:41] people for the reasons I set out in my [58:43] opening remarks. Uh, the the uh Green [58:47] Party doing what they have done, I don't [58:50] think uh they would have done it or they [58:52] would have been less likely to do it, [58:53] but for the antics of the current [58:55] government. Um, and so they have [58:58] questions to answer about that. Um but I [59:01] think that uh we must be very very alert [59:04] indeed to the complete intolerance. If I [59:07] may just tell a story I please do [59:10] >> I met um someone I mean my views on [59:12] these matters changed pretty [59:14] substantially after October the 7th. The [59:17] horror in the foreign office which I [59:20] felt you know as a as a British citizen [59:22] about it all. [59:23] I I remember before October the 7th [59:26] talking to uh a gentleman who was [59:28] heavily involved in the Jewish community [59:30] who told me that at a Friday dinner when [59:33] Jeremy Corbyn was the leader of the [59:34] Labour party uh at the end of the dinner [59:37] his grandmother had seized him by the [59:40] arm and made him promise that if Jeremy [59:43] McCorbin became prime minister he would [59:46] and I quote get the grandchildren out. [59:50] And that had a very significant effect [59:52] on me because it brought home completely [59:55] the scale of fear and misery widespread [59:59] at what was happening when Jeremy Corbyn [60:02] was leader. Now things have changed [60:04] since then. I freely acknowledge that. [60:06] But we must never ever ever [60:08] allow a situation to continue in this [60:11] country where Jewish kids going to [60:13] school feel they cannot wear their [60:15] blazers. It's absolutely intorial. [60:19] >> [applause] [60:27] >> I guess my question to you following on [60:29] from that if you Yeah. Take the question [60:30] on high intentions [60:38] of [60:42] whether it's genuine [60:46] to talk about and sort of [60:50] to speak out for or [60:54] when it comes to labor. [60:55] >> Well, I I think I think we should be [60:57] headed for a further rise in [60:59] anti-semitism because there's just no [61:01] evidence that's going to stop rising [61:04] right now, which is unbelievably [61:06] depressing. [61:10] uh to say I don't want to see just more [61:13] funding thrown at the CST and and [61:16] leaving it up to them to deal with it [61:18] through security measures alone. We do [61:21] clearly have a bit of a problem when it [61:23] comes to both education and integration. [61:27] It feels like such a sort of boring [61:28] topic uh to me in in such an emotive [61:32] discussion, but it it's so key to avoid [61:36] further rises uh to make sure that [61:40] within our education system and and [61:43] across religious communities across [61:45] communities uh throughout the UK that [61:48] that good and healthy integration [61:50] education is going on so that we don't [61:52] get to places and states like we are [61:56] right now. Um, and I would love to hear [61:59] more from from the government on that. [62:01] I'd love to hear more from any political [62:03] party about what they're looking to do [62:06] to actually unite communities, heal [62:09] pensions rather than just throw more [62:11] funding at security. Like that's not the [62:14] way to hold this. It will help protect [62:17] us, but it won't stop it from rising. [62:19] And if we just let it spiral, that's [62:21] going to be even worse for Jewish [62:23] communities across the UK. What I what I [62:25] guess I want to sort of I'm interested [62:26] in both of your uh views on this is I [62:28] mean in Birmingham not too far down the [62:31] road um you know Israeli fans basically [62:35] banned from watching their football team [62:37] play against uh against Aston Villa and [62:40] we then found out this was entirely for [62:42] fictitious reasons. It was an accusation [62:45] uh that you know was the fans that [62:47] behaved horribly and then we the JC [62:49] revealed that actually we got the police [62:51] report from Amsterdam. It was not uh it [62:54] was not the Mabi fans who were sly [62:55] blamed there. They were in fact hunted [62:56] when they were there. And then after the [62:58] good work of Nick Timothy and other [63:00] parliamentarians from party, we then got [63:03] answers out of the West Midlands Police [63:04] saying, "Oh, well, you know, we didn't [63:06] mention that there were people looking [63:09] to arm themselves to go after the [63:10] Israeli fans because you didn't ask us [63:12] about that specific was I must admit my [63:15] jaw-dropping when I was uh sat observing [63:17] the proceedings of the Home Affairs [63:19] Select Committee. But maybe it's a sort [63:21] of serious point here is that is it not [63:23] that haven't we effectively surrendered [63:26] control of whether that's police or [63:28] councils or decision-m to thugs in our [63:31] country because we are somewhat [63:35] [applause] [63:42] >> well I I'll say Nick Tim did very good [63:44] work on on that camp but as as did [63:46] Lauren in reviewing this. you should [63:48] definitely probably have pulled it by [63:51] for all the work that you did on that. [63:53] Um that was a very worrying um example [63:57] and it's extremely concerning to see the [63:59] police involved in this way and sort of [64:02] let it letting that happen. Um, again, [64:05] again, I'm I'm perhaps a naive, hopeful [64:08] optimist about um what an amazing [64:11] country that we live in and that this is [64:13] this is and will be and should be a [64:15] fantastic place for British Jews to be. [64:18] And I still think that that will be the [64:21] case in the future. But like I said, we [64:23] we have to be publicly advocating for [64:26] that. We can't sherk the responsibility [64:29] in talking about it, encouraging groups [64:31] together, calling things out like like [64:34] you did in this case. Um because that is [64:37] the only way that we move forward. We we [64:40] we can't just accept either buggery, but [64:43] we also can't expect buggery in all [64:46] cases. We should push forwards so that [64:48] we we have a strong community uh across [64:51] the UK. [64:52] >> Absolutely right. I completely agree [64:53] with that. And the I have a I'm spent my [64:57] time differentiating the Royal Town of [64:58] Sub Koffield from Birmingham, but we are [65:01] actually part of Birmingham for local [65:03] government purposes only. So I am the [65:06] only I am the only conservative member [65:07] of parliament in in Birmingham. Um the f [65:11] I must just say to begin with that in [65:14] general community relations in [65:16] Birmingham are extraordinarily good and [65:19] the reason for that not to do with [65:20] politicians it's to do with the faith [65:22] communities which are on the whole [65:24] responsibly led and they have placed us [65:27] in a very good position. So there have [65:29] been some flash points and they [65:37] having said that the [65:42] you described absolutely [65:45] disgraceful Timothy who done wonderful [65:48] job on this making a speech in which he [65:51] said [65:54] the fact that the police in [65:57] this matter have lied and lied and lied [66:00] is intolerable and I thought good lord [66:02] we're hearing that in Britain is not a [66:04] very good sign and the police came to [66:06] parliament and they lied to a select [66:08] committee which to be an unbelievably [66:10] severe uh offense to commit misleading [66:14] parliament in that way. So, so I can [66:17] only agree with what you said and hope [66:19] that lessons have been learned. [66:21] >> Did it bring the episode bring back [66:22] memories for you. [66:24] >> Uh I've never um engaged in football or [66:30] illegal activities like that. Um and [66:33] Bridget, if we go to David's question [66:35] about uh there being no sort of [66:38] significant difference from parties in [66:40] the Israeli elections and you know could [66:42] we end up with a coalition in some kind [66:45] of different guys that perhaps we're not [66:47] expecting. So I think it's fair it's a [66:49] fair to say that we are kind of in a [66:51] post ideological world in Israel. It's [66:54] also a truism to say that whenever this [66:56] we said this even pollster said this [66:58] even before October 7th whenever there [67:00] are sustained terror attacks those [67:03] communities move further to the right [67:05] and so if we if we look back now this is [67:07] the first election happening in the [67:08] shadow post October the 7th it's [67:10] conceivable that the whole country has [67:12] moved more more to the more to the right [67:14] though again as I said before this [67:16] doesn't necessarily directly translate [67:18] to uh to support for Netanyahu and so [67:20] and the battle is between those those [67:22] blocks even if the uh as I said the ball [67:25] has moved and it's more of a wing versus [67:29] with or without without leaving. Um [67:31] there's another element to as well and [67:33] for the last four or five elections the [67:35] L could hasn't even bothered to publish [67:37] a manifesto just just just and this kind [67:40] of also emphasizes that it's Israeli [67:42] politics has been for a while and this [67:44] time even more pronounced that it's [67:46] about personalities over over policy and [67:49] it's for a simple kind of tech technical [67:51] reason that because you rely on building [67:53] up a coalition of a variety of uh of [67:57] parties that no policy is worth the [67:59] paper it's written on because no No one [68:01] can implement a manifesto because [68:03] they're always going to have to [68:04] compromise at the end of the day. Um I [68:06] just wanted to connect it to a point the [68:08] question that was asked also about [68:09] giving back Gaza and the West Bank [68:11] because I think it's interesting that a [68:13] couple of the politicians in this [68:15] campaign are relating to those issues [68:17] directly. First of all, the broader [68:19] picture on Egypt on the on the Gaza [68:21] Strip is that Egypt doesn't want it [68:22] back. um they they didn't want it when [68:25] um when when Israel um when when is when [68:27] when Athen made peace with Sedat the [68:29] Egyptians didn't want uh didn't want [68:31] Gaza then show no appetite um one of the [68:35] new sort of rightwing although this is [68:37] an interesting mix because OP winter [68:39] even though he is a new party he is he's [68:42] of the right he has said he's going to [68:44] endorse Nanyahu as prime minister part [68:47] of his policy program is voluntary um uh [68:51] repatriation of the of the guards [68:52] population which is deeply um deeply [68:55] problematic on the surface but when I [68:57] was talking I I had the pleasure of [68:59] meeting him last week and discussing a [69:01] little bit about British politics with [69:03] him and I suggested that they they [69:04] refine their message a little bit [69:06] because the [snorts] principle that [69:08] gardens can't leave Gaza and that every [69:10] other free person in the world has has a [69:12] passport and able to travel at their [69:14] whim but the gardens are being are being [69:16] kept into into garden. This is largely [69:18] because of Egyptian policy first and [69:20] foremost. But I don't think it's [69:22] unreasonable to suggest that Gardens [69:24] that want, and I'm stressing voluntarily [69:25] and that want to leave should be allowed [69:27] some form of mechanism to be able to [69:29] leave and uh and have free free movement [69:32] of uh free movement like anyone else [69:34] would have. Um, with regard to the West [69:36] Bank and other options that kind of [69:39] replace a a two-state solution [69:41] potentially, Victor Leeman, who is [69:42] another one of these figures on the [69:44] right, but representing um parts of the [69:47] the the block of change, also came up [69:49] with a new policy just a few days ago [69:52] where he suggested that Jordan would [69:54] take responsibility for areas A and B [69:56] and that they would be given [69:57] citizenship. Again, I'm not convinced [69:59] that this is going to this is going to [70:01] fly, but it is at least an example that [70:03] people are thinking creatively that if [70:05] there is a blockage on creating a [70:07] Palestinian state, then other other um [70:10] thinking out of the box and involving [70:12] Jordan. By the way, I will also [70:13] emphasize that I don't know if people [70:15] saw the uh the speech of the Jordanian [70:17] uh um king at the UN last week who was [70:21] had some vicious attacks against Israel. [70:23] Other analysts have pointed out that [70:24] both Israel and both Jordan and Egypt [70:27] represent a fundamental strategic anchor [70:31] for the state of Israel [70:36] shouldn't be I think neutral but by the [70:38] way [70:42] on both sides [70:45] the Arabs but solidifying and building [70:47] up meaningful partnership and taking [70:49] into consideration the Egyptian the [70:50] Jordanians that are a fundamental part [70:53] of Israeli security um infrastructure. [70:55] >> Before we go over one final brief round [70:57] of questions, I just want to pick you up [70:58] on sort of the that particular policy of [71:01] encouragement of voluntary uh [71:03] repatriation or departure of gardens. [71:06] It's a massive problem for [71:11] especially with European parties who [71:13] might turn around and say, "Hang on a [71:14] minute, why are you encouraging more [71:15] migration into Europe?" [71:16] >> I don't think it's about encourage I [71:18] don't think it's about encouraging at [71:19] all. I just think it's about finding a [71:21] mechanism that if they want to leave, [71:23] they should be allowed to. By the way, [71:24] we're talking about also just on a on a [71:26] on a tourist visas. I'm not talking [71:28] about moving forever, but they're kind [71:29] of they also guard should have the right [71:32] if they want to if they want to visit [71:33] other parts of the world, they should be [71:35] given tourist visas like like anyone [71:37] else. So, it's just about finding a [71:39] mechanism for them to for them to give [71:41] them free free movement and uh and and [71:44] free travel. I think that's the that's [71:45] the principle. Andrew, [71:47] >> I just wanted to say I thought that the [71:48] contribution of gentleman from Herzmeir [71:51] was was wise sensible. Um uh and that uh [71:56] Mr. William Solomon's uh question about [71:59] Egypt. Well, I think it's partly been [72:01] answered that the other countries will [72:02] take back uh Gaza and the West Bank. [72:06] It's a s I mean what some saying is a [72:08] sort of uh wonderful senior common room [72:11] uh philosophizing, but it wouldn't [72:13] actually work practice on the ground. I [72:16] think that's the most polite [72:17] evisceration I've [laughter] ever heard. [72:19] Um, we will take yeah brief questions [72:22] please. So could we please go to uh [72:25] Steve Hilton for governor hat [72:31] from South Cops. Uh just wondering how [72:34] much the BBC is to blame for the [72:37] attitude in this country. um [72:41] they seem incapable of [72:44] being [72:47] in the middle. They have to they take [72:49] the view of the anti-Israeli [72:52] all the time and I think that has [72:55] damaged the perception of the British [72:57] public about Israel which accounts for a [73:00] lot of problems we have. [73:02] >> Yep. [73:04] Maybe I'm back and I think probably [73:06] that's because I know people have put [73:07] them down so we'll leave at those two. [73:08] Sorry if you didn't get a chance this [73:10] time. [73:10] >> Hi, I'm White. Um I grew up in the youth [73:13] center of London in the 50s and the 60s [73:15] and there was Jewish people everywhere [73:17] and we were got along really well. My [73:19] grand school in the city of Glen was 40% [73:22] Jewish girls and 60% gentile girls and [73:24] we just all got along and I question [73:28] where it all went wrong. Even when there [73:30] was the Jordanian war, the six day war, [73:32] there wasn't an uprising to protest [73:35] against what was happening at the [73:36] Georgian. [73:37] >> Is there a question there? [73:38] >> The question is, the question is where [73:40] has it all come from all of a sudden? Is [73:42] it to link with what the gentleman said [73:44] about the rights of Islam? [73:45] >> Yeah. [73:46] >> So, we'll take the more broad and [73:48] slightly apocalyptic of where's it all [73:50] gone wrong. Uh Tally, if you want to [73:53] start with that, [73:55] >> where's it all gone wrong? Um, what an [73:59] easy question to answer. [laughter] [74:02] >> Um, God, I I actually don't know where [74:05] to begin to be perfectly honest. Um, but [74:09] all I I'm afraid I do have to go. So, so [74:12] I think all I will say is that um I I [74:15] genuinely genuinely believe that there [74:18] is a way for us to get back on track. I [74:20] don't believe that this is going to be [74:22] our norm forever because it cannot [74:24] continue in this way. and uh the people [74:27] that have turned up for this event [74:29] hopefully will be a part of this and [74:30] will hopefully also encourage their [74:33] friends and family and communities to [74:35] also uh not let this go down uh any [74:39] further. Um so yeah, I'm going to be on [74:40] that. [74:42] >> Let's show our appreciation [74:44] [applause] [74:50] if I can come to you to Paul's question [74:52] about the BBC. I mean I sort of I think [74:54] a lot of people watching in the room [74:55] will have seen uh you know coverage from [74:58] the BBC and there'll be a big domestic [74:59] story that's item number three agenda [75:03] of view on that and should sort of is it [75:05] right that Israel coverage has such high [75:08] precedent for the British broadcasters. [75:11] >> I'm not really um one of those who [75:13] attacks the BBC in this way. I mean, I [75:15] was very disappointed that the [75:16] Conservative Party conference wasn't at [75:17] the top of the BBC's news list today, [75:20] but I'm glad to accept that someone at [75:22] the BBC decided that we were the third [75:24] most interesting story and not the first [75:26] most interesting. Um, I don't I don't I [75:28] think the BBC can be criticized and it [75:30] certainly is criticized for [75:38] I think uh [75:41] the heightened [75:43] is [75:45] part of it. uh and we should all as [75:48] conservatives mourn the failure and [75:51] retreat [75:53] because uh we are dependent on the [75:55] international systems. The whole series [75:57] of reasons why it has declined uh so uh [76:01] significantly over recent years and [76:03] that's not to Britain's advantage in [76:05] terms of our world but [76:10] the world to a sar nationalist blocks [76:13] approach. you look around the world from [76:15] Trump to X to Modi to um uh reverting to [76:20] a system that many of us would studied [76:23] history would recognize before the first [76:25] world war. So I think uh the the the [76:27] loss of internationalism which is so [76:30] important to deal with problems like [76:31] migration uh pandemics uh climate change [76:35] and so forth is to be deeply regretted. [76:38] and Richard and I'll get you to do brief [76:41] briefly those two points of where did it [76:43] all go wrong and the BBC [76:46] I'll just make some short comments about [76:47] the BBC first of all from the great [76:49] heights this is how I've kind of heard [76:51] Israeli government officials talk about [76:53] BBC historically with such reverence [76:56] especially kind of go back to the second [76:58] world war when BBC reporting was so [77:00] fundamental about the the atrocities of [77:03] the Holocaust even I was reading an [77:05] account recently from going back to to [77:07] 67 7 where it was a it was a BBC [77:10] correspondent who was in close contact [77:13] with the Israeli government ministers [77:15] who was given the exclusive about [77:17] Israel's preemptive strike on on Egypt [77:20] but held back reporting because the [77:22] editorial team in London just didn't [77:24] believe it and they thought there you [77:25] know one of the uh one of the whatifs of [77:27] history could have been had the BBC [77:29] reported that then the Jordanians would [77:30] have understood the truth about the uh [77:32] the obliteration of the Egyptian airport [77:34] and they wouldn't have started the the [77:36] artillery bombing of Jerusalem. So kind [77:38] of the whatifs of history. I mean right [77:40] now the BBC is going on its own it's its [77:42] own internal investigations and I think [77:44] that's that's an appropriate call for [77:45] action. Our bureaucrat can say yes we [77:47] are quite disappointed with the way that [77:50] the BBC um covers the current uh [77:52] situation. Again, as as an organization [77:54] that works with the media, we don't have [77:56] a choice but to work with the people who [77:58] are sent and so we keep relation. It's [78:01] uh certainly the the editorial line and [78:03] the uh the politicization is definitely [78:05] damaging and uh and disturbing [78:08] >> on that. Thank you very much, Andrew [78:10] Mitchell. Thank you, Richard B. Thank [78:11] you. [78:13] [applause]
