Transcript [00:00] - The following is a conversation with Khabib Nurmagomedov, [00:04] one of the greatest fighters of all time, who retired from the [00:07] UFC undefeated with a perfect twenty-nine and O record. It was a huge honor for me [00:14] to meet him, to train together, and to have this deep conversation. [00:20] We had this conversation entirely in Russian. [00:24] This was my first time doing so on this podcast. [00:28] And even these words I'm saying right now are spoken in Russian. [00:32] So if you're hearing me in English, you're actually listening to the [00:36] English dub. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio [00:40] tracks by clicking the settings gear icon, then clicking [00:44] audio track, and then selecting the language you prefer. [00:50] For the original Russian version, select Russian. And [00:54] for the English dub, select English. Subtitles are also available in both languages. [01:01] The translation and dubbing are a collaborative effort of [01:05] translators, real human beings, including myself and AI. [01:11] Thanks to the incredible team at ElevenLabs for their help. [01:17] And now, please allow me to take this moment to say thank you [01:21] from the bottom of my heart for your love and support all these years. [01:26] I love you all. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. And now, dear friends, [01:32] here's Khabib Nurmagomedov. Let's try in Russian if we can, like you suggested. [01:39] - I can help you out if you need. [01:40] - Yeah, thanks, brother. I kind of feel it in my heart and soul, but [01:44] sometimes I can't find the right words. [01:47] - I know, brother. We got this. [01:49] - Great. Let's start from the beginning. So that gym back in Dagestan where you [01:55] trained is legendary for its spartan conditions. [01:59] There was just one shower for seventy people, only cold [02:03] water. And yet, this humble little gym managed [02:07] to raise more than twenty world champions, including several UFC champions. [02:14] Can you try to explain or maybe reflect on [02:17] what factors in that gym, those training sessions, that life in [02:21] Dagestan created so many champions? [02:24] - Sure. So we're talking about the gym, the one located in Makhachkala. [02:30] And Makhachkala, for the people who don't know, it's the capital of [02:33] Dagestan. This was back around the years from two thousand to two [02:37] thousand and ten, and even later on. In twenty nineteen, [02:41] we opened up a big gym, a major facility that is still [02:45] functioning to this day. But before twenty nineteen, [02:49] we all actually trained in that gym where there was practically [02:53] nothing. It was just a school gym with nothing but mats, a [02:57] single punching bag, one climbing rope, and a kind of indoor basketball court. [03:04] And if we go even further back, before two thousand, before we moved to [03:08] Makhachkala, we lived in a village. [03:11] In the village, we had a gym right inside our house. My father, [03:15] he built a gym at home, and he was training all the local village kids right there. [03:20] And there were times back when I was a child, let's say when I was [03:24] maybe six or seven years old, I would occasionally wake up to the sound of, [03:30] people training, doing their drills right there in the gym. [03:34] You know, like with judo or freestyle when they're drilling, one guy throwing [03:38] another. Those are my first conscious memories. I was maybe [03:42] five, six, seven years old at that time. So my father [03:46] set up this gym in the village and trained local kids, including [03:50] me, my older brother, and all our close and distant relatives, [03:54] anyone who wanted to come. A lot of kids came to him. [03:57] - So you would wake up and there are these sounds. [04:00] - Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You hear the hitting, the throwing over and [04:04] over. And my father's voice, how he's shouting, giving [04:08] instructions, pushing someone, coaching, teaching. I [04:12] lived with those sounds. But that was in the village. And later [04:16] when we moved to Makhachkala, [04:18] well, you couldn't say the gym there was wow either. There were [04:22] only mats. And of course, the most valuable thing an athlete [04:26] can have, a coach, my father. So he trained us there. [04:33] And to be honest, let's say, until I [04:36] became a champion and had big success, we never had a [04:40] good big gym where we could, you know, [04:44] all take a shower together at the same time after training. [04:48] We always had just one shower for everyone, no proper amenities. [04:53] - So your life story began in the mountains of Dagestan in [04:57] Sildi, then Kirovaul, and then Makhachkala. [05:02] And in all these situations, there are very interesting stories. But [05:06] one of the things I heard you say is that the best results are born out of the worst [05:10] conditions. What can you say about that? [05:13] Philosophically, is it correct to say that comfort is kind of the enemy for [05:17] champions? [05:19] - It depends on the sport. For example, let's say in football, you have to [05:23] have conditions. You can't really play if there is practically no [05:27] field. Of course, you can play in the dirt, and it happens sometimes. You [05:31] can start there. But when you are ten or twelve years old, you already have to [05:35] be at a certain level. You must have conditions. But if we look at our sport, [05:42] then what is the most important thing? The coach. [05:45] You also need sparring partners who will [05:48] push you in the gym, as they say, right? And you need the [05:51] mats. Our sport is not expensive. You just buy your [05:55] wrestling shoes, singlets, shorts, a T-shirt. And [05:59] if there's a mat, you wrestle, you become a champion, you fight. [06:04] But when you live too well, let's say, you know, you're never [06:08] in need. For example, you were born into a wealthy family [06:12] and you already have everything. [06:14] Would that same wealthy father, would he force you to do such a brutal [06:18] sport? A sport where you come home every day with injuries [06:25] where you come home with an exhausted body, you come home with bruises. [06:29] Would he really do that? That's the question. And the kid himself, who [06:33] lives a life of luxury, would he even want to do this? [06:38] When we look at it statistically, the answer is no. This [06:42] is where you need that hunger. You have to be in a position where you are truly [06:46] in need. [06:47] - And it's interesting that there's a psychological side to this as [06:50] well, that you need a tough situation to create champions. [06:54] But what's really interesting is how Dagestan has produced so many wrestling [06:58] champions. You mentioned football. Let's look at other [07:02] countries. Why has Brazil produced so many great football players? [07:06] Why does Argentina have so many football players? Of course, you have [07:10] Germany, France, and all that. [07:12] - European, yeah. [07:12] - The whole European side. But those are completely different cultures. [07:16] - Yes. Well, in Brazil, their strength is in their numbers. How many people do [07:20] they have? The population is huge, more than two hundred million. [07:24] And people really love it there. It's a huge tradition. Because, you [07:28] know, without a real love for this sport, you can never achieve any [07:32] success. You truly have to love what you are doing. So they have the [07:35] tradition and they have the love for it, and that is why they play for all the [07:39] top clubs. Well, I think they just win by numbers. [07:43] - Yeah, that's a powerful aspect of their culture. How much people, [07:47] how much the whole nation loves to play football. And if you add to that a [07:51] system that creates strong teams, that's how you can produce so many football [07:55] legends. [07:56] - Yes. Take Dagestan, for example. We love football. I just know how much [08:00] people in Dagestan love football. Yes, we have wrestlers, fighters. There are many [08:04] of us. But for football players, there is no ecosystem like that. Not so well [08:08] organized where a kid can, for example, play at school, then go to [08:12] some academy, then get noticed there, and then get picked up by a club. We don't [08:16] have that system. It's just kids running on the streets, [08:21] playing on the streets, following football. Let's say playing on PlayStation. [08:27] There is no system. There is no selection process where kids can go and [08:31] show themselves, so they can be noticed and get signed. I think [08:35] Brazil and other countries, and of course Europe, they have it. [08:40] So yeah, we have big problems with football. However, in our sports [08:44] where you can, where you can wrestle, where you can fight, in that sense, we [08:48] have a system. For example, the gyms, you know, in Makhachkala, let's say [08:52] for combat sports. I'm not even counting like freestyle [08:56] wrestling or other styles. There may be forty or fifty gyms for [09:00] combat sports, and all are full. If you win in Dagestan, you move on to [09:04] the North Caucasus level, then to the Russian nationals. If you're champion [09:08] of Russia, you go to the Worlds. In amateurs, they notice you and [09:12] you make a name for yourself. There is a certain ladder here. [09:16] But in many other sports here in Dagestan, we don't have such a [09:20] well-structured ladder for people to climb. [09:23] - Can we look at this philosophically again? I mean, you've seen so many wrestlers, [09:27] fighters. Why exactly were these gyms creating so [09:31] many champions? I'm just honestly curious because it's rare [09:35] in any sport, one gym or a small number of gyms creating so many champions. [09:40] - Well, first important factor is the competition level is incredibly high. [09:47] You come to the gym, and in every spot you have good wrestlers, [09:51] ten or fifteen guys right there, and the coaches are great. [09:56] You know, it so happened that my father broke through in the media, [10:01] and then I became a champion, and the other guys became champions too. [10:07] And my father's philosophy, it really resonated, and he became known for it. [10:13] But there are coaches in Dagestan that not many people know [10:17] about. They are known locally, but they are [10:21] very good, and actually they have the knowledge, they have the [10:25] approach, they have the philosophy. [10:28] They could also be at the same level as my father was. I believe there [10:32] are really quite a few of them. In terms of the coaching, I think [10:36] Dagestan was extremely lucky. It probably goes back to the [10:39] nineteen fifties when wrestling really took off here, starting [10:43] with Ali Aliyev, our legendary wrestler, a five-time world champion [10:47] who went to the Olympics three times. That's where it started, with his [10:51] generation. There was Zagalav Abdulbekov, Ali Aliyev. [10:55] Those are the well-known names. I mean, those guys are famous, but there were [10:59] so many other less known wrestlers who later on, after they [11:03] retired, they all became great coaches themselves. And these coaches, they [11:07] raised a very large number of guys who are really good at [11:10] wrestling. And then some of those coaches, they kind of [11:14] switched over to fighting, let's say to [11:18] grappling, to MMA, and they started coaching in combat Sambo [11:22] as well. And it just kept going like that, you know. It was moving forward [11:28] step by step. And so we have a huge number of really great [11:32] coaches. I believe this is one of the single most important keys [11:36] to the success of Dagestani wrestlers and fighters, the coaching staff of Dagestan. [11:42] - Is it more about technique or is it really just about serious, incredibly hard work? [11:48] - Well, you have to look at the traditions, because generally it's just the way it is [11:52] in Dagestan. Everyone wrestles. Everyone fights. It's part of [11:56] our culture. You know yourself, fighting is like fifty percent wrestling. [12:02] Every parent wants their children to wrestle, to be physically strong. [12:06] Our approach to kids is that a child must be strong. [12:10] They must be able to stand up for themselves, for their [12:13] family. It's something that has traditionally always [12:17] been in every single one of our clans, every family, every village. [12:22] It's just in our blood. [12:25] - I mean, it's worth pointing out, and you've actually written about this, that this isn't just a [12:29] recent thing. It's been going on for hundreds of years. [12:33] - Yes, that's right. These lands, Dagestan specifically, [12:37] have seen powerful armies sweep through time and time again. [12:42] Because of that, people here have always had to fight to survive. [12:46] - Refusing to back down, refusing to give up their land or lose their identity. [12:51] - Their homes, their villages, yeah, their families, and land. [12:56] If we look back a thousand years in history, maybe fifteen hundred years, [13:01] there was the Khazar Khaganate, the Arabic Caliphate, then [13:05] the Iranian Empire, or the Persian Empire, I should say. [13:10] Then the Russian Empire, Timur passed through [13:14] there, the Mongols. And if we look at the geographical [13:18] location of Dagestan, for those who don't know, the [13:22] Caucasus range runs across the whole region like a wall, and [13:26] then it slopes down right where the Caspian lowlands are. [13:31] So you've got the sea on the right, the mountains on the left, and the [13:34] Caspian lowlands right here. And there was a city there that's still standing today. [13:41] It's one of the oldest cities in the world, not just in Russia. It's [13:45] Derbent. It used to be called Babul Abwab. [13:49] It means the gate of gates. Very major trade routes [13:53] went through there. Very large armies passed through, and it [13:57] was bound to leave a mark on the people. [14:02] we have so many languages, more than thirty different languages, and [14:06] people just don't understand each other. [14:09] Take Islam and me. We have different languages, come from different backgrounds. [14:13] Islam is Lak, and I'm Avar. When we talk, it's not like [14:17] it's a dialect. We don't understand each other at all. [14:20] But since Islam has been with us for nearly twenty-five years, [14:24] he actually picked up some Avar over time. But [14:28] anyway, the deep history of the region, it all left [14:32] its mark. It created many different languages and traditions. [14:38] Basically, of course, Islam is our primary religion, but [14:42] Dagestan has actually absorbed a lot of cultures and [14:46] faiths. Even our food culture, it is incredibly rich. We have European and Asian and [14:53] Caucasian, our own unique cuisine. So on the people, on the people themselves, the [15:00] last fifteen hundred years of history have left a huge [15:04] mark. If you're into history and you start reading about [15:08] Dagestan, I think you'll get completely immersed and be amazed [15:12] by what a unique place it is. [15:15] So all of this left a huge mark. Look at the terrain. It's a coastal plain, [15:19] and then the mountains rise up. For instance, take someone like [15:22] Timur. When he passed through with a huge army, he stayed in the Dagestan [15:26] lowlands but never went up into the mountains. Why? Because [15:30] you've got hundreds of thousands of troops, soldiers traveling with [15:34] horses and supplies. If they had started going up into [15:38] the mountains where it's cold and there are no roads, [15:42] it would have been too tough for them. So the highlanders somehow [15:46] managed to stay independent. But the lowlands, the Caspian lowlands of [15:52] Dagestan, they kept changing hands. Massive [15:56] empires would roll in, and all of that left a mark on the people. [16:01] Gate of the gates, Babul Abwab. Historians wrote about it, say, [16:06] a thousand or fifteen hundred years ago, great historians [16:10] from various countries. People have written so much about [16:13] Dagestan. It went by different names back then, but [16:17] they wrote a ton about this exact region. [16:21] Many people, many empires invaded our land. [16:25] - So do you feel that inside you, in your blood, your heart, like all of this history? [16:30] - Well, in the past, it's not like I really felt it. I knew Dagestan's [16:34] history, but maybe with time, you start to see it in a whole new [16:38] light. Every year, you change a bit on a mental and psychological level. [16:46] Now I understand. I really do. You cannot just [16:52] be born physically and mentally strong. Your [16:56] environment shapes you no matter what, where you grew up, how you [17:00] grew up, the conditions, and who you had around you. And after [17:04] all, genetics are also a part of who you are. [17:07] So when you add all this up, yeah, I just feel like all of this [17:11] has come together inside me. [17:14] - It's interesting because in sports, we know many of the [17:18] names of the great fighters and wrestlers. [17:22] Yet when it comes to war, there are so many people who fought, [17:26] heroes, truly great warriors. Some we know by name, but most of them we'll never [17:33] actually know and- [17:35] - We'll never know. [17:36] - You write about Imam Shamil, [17:39] that he's an important figure for this region and a hero as well. [17:44] - Well, Imam Shamil, he was known for resisting an empire as huge as Russia. [17:51] Dagestan is so small, and he had so few people with him. How [17:55] did he get famous? He got famous because he held out for a very long time. He didn't [17:59] just resist for a couple of years. He was like a [18:03] regular fighter, let's say, a soldier for ten years, and [18:07] then when he became the leader, he went on for another twenty-five years. [18:13] So, 35 years of his conscious life he spent fighting [18:17] not just some random empire, but what was then, if not [18:20] the most powerful, definitely one of the strongest empires of that era. [18:27] And that is what made him famous. [18:30] And so there are villages in Dagestan that deeply honor the [18:34] memory of particular warriors who came from their villages, [18:39] from their clan, from their ethnic group. But in, well world history, they're [18:47] barely known. Like, take Shamil. He's a leader, right? So everybody knows [18:52] him. But there are plenty of heroes who've been forgotten. But yeah, their [18:56] own people remember. [18:58] - Villages hold on to history. Plus, we have to admit [19:02] that conditions in the mountains are incredibly harsh. That's part of it [19:06] too. Just surviving up there is a real struggle. [19:10] - See, back then, people in the mountains worked all through the summer just to [19:13] survive the winter, because winters are harsh, with heavy snow, [19:17] completely cutting off villages. People just stay inside and try to outlast it. [19:24] And in the summer, they work. Terrace farming was a huge thing for us. [19:29] Our terraces are among the most, you could say, famous and [19:33] ancient in the world. They're known as the Chokh terraces. Now, [19:37] those are the famous ones. But every village had terraces. [19:41] There's a place out there called Marghit, right across from our [19:44] village. People worked over there, but here, in the village, is [19:48] where they lived. I mean, you'd think, why didn't they just build a village [19:52] right there, in the place where we grow all our food? Because [19:56] enemies could easily ride in on horseback. An army could [20:00] easily get to you there, so they'd build a village in rugged terrain- [20:04] ... somewhere tough to invade. [20:07] For instance, our village is Sildi. It's from the word si, which is like [20:11] a castle or a fortress or a tower. [20:14] They built it that way so an army couldn't reach them. You'd have to hike [20:18] down one mountain and then climb up a whole different [20:21] mountain. And right there, they'd plant things like grain, potatoes, [20:26] basically, you know, all their food. [20:29] See, if we had built over there, if we lived there and grew our crops [20:33] in the same place, since it's all terraced land, an army could just walk [20:37] right up, launch raids, and so on. Back in the day, that's how people lived. [20:42] And so all of this took a toll on people, physically, psychologically, and mentally. [20:50] And honestly, well, you just can't be born in these [20:53] conditions, live here, stay here, and be mentally weak. [20:58] You just have to be tough. There's no other way to survive. [21:02] - So you just built a sports complex there. [21:05] Pretty legendary, you know. Could you talk about that? [21:08] - Yes, that was my father's whole plan. He really wanted it way up in [21:12] the mountains. First, it's great for the fighters. Right now, [21:16] I just flew out here to Las Vegas. We're sitting here, like, [21:20] doing this podcast together, but I came out here for Umar's fight. [21:25] And I should say, Umar did his main training there at the new base in Sildi. [21:32] He spent almost a month at that place. And because it's [21:36] 1500 to 1600 meters above sea level, man, it's tough to train there. And [21:44] And the thing is, when you spend about three to four weeks there, [21:48] you just have more oxygen in your blood, you have more [21:52] testosterone, you improve physically, you know, your [21:56] stamina builds up, and so on. And [22:00] this base was sort of my father's dream. He started building it back in 2016, 2017. [22:08] Money was tight back then. It was really hard, but we built it little by little. [22:13] In 2020, my father passed away, but I kept the [22:17] project going just a little differently, on a bigger scale. [22:22] Right now, the base is open, and 100 people can be there at the [22:26] same time, training, eating, sleeping. [22:31] And our guys hold their training camps up there. [22:37] So this was sort of my father's dream that I have pretty much brought to life. [22:44] - It's a powerful story. To return to the place where you were born up in the [22:48] mountains in order to build a sports complex where champions train. [22:53] Makhachkala Gym is a great place, but the mountains are special. [22:58] - Mountains are mountains. [22:59] - Mountains are mountains. [22:59] - Your home village, no matter what, on some sort of deeper level, [23:04] somehow gives you that, you know, like Americans love to say, [23:07] positive energy. Not everything has to be done for money. [23:11] And you know, you shouldn't just look for profit in [23:15] everything, let's say financially. [23:18] There are certain things that don't bring me anything at all except for [23:22] expenses, but I still do all of it because, um, [23:27] because it brings me a lot of happiness and meaning. [23:31] First of all, it creates a lot of jobs. People can work and earn a living. [23:37] Second, it's because my father really wanted this. Third, [23:41] let's say the guys can train and improve up there, [23:45] both physically and spiritually. There are just so many benefits there. [23:51] - I don't know if it's okay to ask something like this, but I would dream of coming [23:54] out there to Dagestan, and not just to Makhachkala, but to Sildi. [23:59] Is that even possible for me? [24:02] - I think we could film a really good story out there. I'm not sure about a podcast, [24:08] but I'm sure we could shoot a really nice vlog there. [24:13] - So can you tell me a bit about the journey from Makhachkala all the way to Sildi? [24:18] - Four hours. Well, 3:40. [24:19] - Through the mountains? [24:20] - Yeah, 3:30, 3:40 through the mountains. The road is a real winding [24:23] one, not an easy ride. If it gets to be too hard for you, we can just take a [24:27] helicopter. It's no problem at all. Like 40 to 50 minutes from [24:33] Makhachkala to Sildi. Otherwise, keeping it more down to earth, we go [24:37] by car, so there's absolutely no problem. [24:39] - I could never get used to a wealthy life. It's just, it's not in my blood to be [24:43] like that. [24:44] - All right, then we'll go by car. [24:46] - Yeah, we could go on horseback, but a car is better. [24:49] - No, no, by car is better. On horseback takes way too long. [24:52] - Um, so you mentioned money, [24:57] and we were just talking about comfort because right now there are so many [25:00] champions. They win so much. Things are going so [25:04] well. How much harder is it to stay a champion when the money [25:08] and the fame start coming in, when all that stuff starts showing up? [25:13] - Well, those are all distracting things. When you become a champion, [25:17] there's a massive amount of attention on you. Sometimes it's contracts, [25:22] sometimes you end up having to fly a lot, you start getting busy with things, [25:26] and little by little you begin to miss your workouts. You miss one, you [25:29] miss two, you miss three. [25:33] And all of that takes a toll, and the person who used to train with such [25:37] a drive, with a hunger to be the best, as soon as they actually [25:41] become the best, they just don't know what to do next. And [25:45] they live their whole life just to become, stay on the top. [25:54] As soon as they get there, what are they supposed to do? [25:59] That's it. They already made it. They've reached their goal, and there are just so [26:03] many distracting factors: money, flights, you [26:07] know, meetings, contracts, video shoots. There [26:11] are just so many distracting factors. And so if a [26:14] person doesn't know how to handle all of this, [26:18] then that person comes down from the top real fast. And I'm saying [26:22] this based on my own experience, from what I've seen all around me [26:26] with the ones who came before me. [26:28] And back then when I was training with my father, his students who [26:33] went on to become world champions, just how they finished their careers and [26:37] so on. And it's what I saw from my [26:41] own observations of other types of sports, how they came back down, [26:45] as far as I've learned. This is a very delicate moment. If a person [26:50] climbing all the way to the top, if they can handle all of that, that [26:54] already shows they have an incredibly serious mindset. Reaching the [26:58] championship and staying there, reaching it is one thing, but [27:02] staying a champion, that's totally different. It's incredibly tough. [27:07] - You're saying that even on a local level, once you become a champion, that's already [27:13] the tough moment because a lot of people [27:17] who start winning, like you said, they stop fighting, [27:21] they quit doing MMA and switch over to fitness. They find themselves that comfort. [27:27] But holding onto it is hard, even on a local level. [27:32] Every single time you become more and more of a champion, you won the [27:36] Sambo championship, you keep winning more and more, and every time it gets harder. [27:42] - Yes, and it depends on the person's goals. If you want to become an [27:46] amateur champion just to prove something to yourself, that's one [27:50] thing. But if you view amateur sports as a springboard [27:54] to jump right into professional sports and become a champion among [27:58] professionals, that's a whole different thing. There are different [28:02] paths. First, you build an amateur career just to get [28:05] into the pros and go even further from there. Second, [28:10] after you've made it into the pros, you become a champion. And [28:14] third, after you become a champion, you have to stay there. [28:18] Not everyone has what it takes. It is incredibly tough. If you look at the [28:22] numbers, you can literally count these champions on one hand. How many of [28:26] them are there? Maybe 15, 20, 30 people? [28:30] Let's say 50 over the last 30 years, and how many have [28:34] tried? For example, 50 achieved it over 30 years, [28:38] over 35 years of MMA combat sports. [28:42] But how many tried? Hundreds of thousands. And look at that number. Such [28:46] a tiny amount actually reached the end goal. [28:49] So for you to actually make it into this tiny list, you really [28:53] have to be like just a truly unique, [28:58] person and a fighter and, and you know, a student, [29:04] and a person who can accept guidance from a coach [29:07] who when they are being guided, discard the cons and [29:11] take only the pros. But there are people who take criticism [29:15] very hard and very negatively, and are very sensitive, [29:19] let's say, when they take criticism- [29:22] ... from a mentor. So it all has to click, and some accept criticism at the very [29:29] beginning, but then once they become champions, it's hard for them to take it. [29:34] It happens differently. A man sometimes doesn't even know what [29:38] he is capable of. Sometimes he just can't really [29:42] understand himself until he achieves success or [29:46] becomes famous, wealthy, and powerful. That [29:49] is exactly when he discovers his true qualities. [29:54] When he is limited in something, in money, in power, in [29:58] everything that success eventually brings him, [30:02] he doesn't really know how he's going to act [30:07] in this new role, doesn't know how he'll behave once he becomes [30:11] big, famous, and a champion. Nobody knows. Some people [30:15] say and wish, "Oh, if only I'd made it like that, I would do things this way." [30:20] I think it's better if people don't throw around such big words [30:25] because you never know how you'll carry yourself once you actually get there. [30:31] You know, it's such a delicate thing, getting up there and still remaining human. [30:39] - When it comes to you, I see that everyone here just loves you. Even early [30:43] on in your career, millions of people loved you. That is also a, [30:48] a tough thing to deal with because maybe you start believing it. [30:53] And you can lose yourself in all of it. So is it all in the mind? I mean, [30:59] what actually goes on in a champion's head? In yours [31:04] when you sat alone thinking about your life, "Who am I really, [31:09] and what do I do to keep being a champion or to become one?" [31:14] - Well, first of all, from the very beginning, if you realize that what you're [31:18] chasing isn't the most important thing in life, then it gets [31:22] easier for you. And then, you know, there are some people [31:25] whose, let's say, ultimate goal is to be successful, powerful, and to make it big. [31:33] At the end of the day, after all, we are not really such big, important people. [31:39] And, like, I believe it's wrong to just crown yourself king because, [31:49] uh if we put it, to put it bluntly, if we're being honest here, [31:57] we can't even control the basic need to go to the restroom. Maybe to some... Yeah. [32:05] To some people this will probably seem a bit crude, but we all go [32:09] to the restroom, excuse my language. If we can't control [32:13] even this, so what can we actually [32:16] control in this life? Look how many people we know, how many great [32:21] people have left this earth. It doesn't really matter how, like, [32:25] big, strong, or famous you are, how wealthy you are, champion or no [32:29] champion. Either way, they put us all in the exact same grave, you know, [32:33] two meters down or, like, a meter or a meter and a half. [32:37] Different confessions, different religions, they bury people in different ways. [32:42] So I actually believe that every single person should have this realization that we [32:48] are just not some kind of big, important [32:52] people here who just decide and get to control everything. We don't get to do that. [32:59] In my case, I was raised under the guidance of my father. My father was a coach, [33:05] and my goal was always to become... To prove to my father that out of everyone, even [33:12] though he trains many other people, he trains everyone, I mean, I'm also here. [33:18] I can show him. He doesn't have to look very far. I'm right there, [33:23] and under his guidance, I can become a champion. I [33:27] looked up to him and followed his example, trained hard, and it was like, you know, [33:33] a kind of a challenge to prove to him that, "Look, I [33:37] am right here, Father, and everything you teach, I will take it [33:41] all in zealously, worthily. I'll follow your program, [33:45] do it right, and I will become a champion." And that was [33:49] exactly the kind of goal I had, to prove it first and foremost [33:53] to my father and secondly to the entire world that I can [33:57] become the best wrestler or fighter. But I never [34:02] thought of being crowned king after I became a [34:06] champion. I was never going to walk around like, "Look how cool [34:10] I am." That was never in my head, and I'm really glad [34:14] that the Almighty protected me from all of that because many [34:18] people end up in a bad place if they act like that. [34:22] - This is a profound wisdom, not thinking about being crowned. [34:26] But even if you don't, a fire should burn within you, driving you to [34:30] become a champion, right? As you said, hundreds of thousands, [34:34] millions of people want to be a champion, but only one can be. [34:37] - Yeah, but that is actually about you confronting your [34:41] opponent. You've got to put a barrier inside your mind [34:46] where on one side you're a humble person, but on the [34:50] other side you're different because you have a goal, your goal. [34:54] Of course, you should still follow a code of honor. You should be a man, [34:58] a righteous man, and know what you can and cannot do. You should always do that. [35:04] But in the end, your opponent is the person who wants to stop your dream. [35:10] So here the boundaries expand just a little bit. [35:14] Right here, you're already not playing humble. Right here, you just step out [35:18] and you want to clear your opponent out of your way, and that's it, because your [35:25] goal is to be the best in the world and they are blocking you. [35:29] Excuse me, but in this situation, there's no way you can act all humble. [35:35] - But when you were training in the gym, what was it that gave you this strength? [35:39] A hatred of losing or a love for winning? [35:45] - I think it was the hatred of losing. Yes, definitely. [35:49] I mean, you know, of course you want to win, but for me there [35:53] was always this driver like, "No way. I am not losing," you know. [36:00] When they would give me a fight, I always tell this to my guys, whenever they [36:04] would give me a fight on a professional level, 100 days before it [36:10] I was... How do you say it? Addiction. [36:16] I was fixated like when people have this addiction. But for me it [36:20] was commitment, that I absolutely had to prepare perfectly for the [36:23] fight. I couldn't miss any training sessions. I would literally have, [36:27] like, this panic. Like, for example, I'd fly somewhere and [36:32] I have, let's say, eighty-five days left until the fight. [36:36] Like, I knew that I had to fly. For example, if I was flying to [36:39] Moscow, I would always pick a ticket so I could [36:43] absolutely do my morning training session first. Then I'd [36:47] take off around lunchtime. And once I arrived in Moscow, for [36:50] whatever reason, I had to fit it all around my training schedule. [36:56] Either I had to meet up before my training sessions or I had to meet up after my [37:00] training sessions. And I simply could not miss that evening training session [37:04] because I had to train during the day from four to five [37:08] hours, two in the morning and two to two and a half in the evening. [37:12] And I needed to I would prepare myself that way. Looking [37:16] at who was in Moscow right then, wondering who I could, like [37:20] pull into a training session there. Well, they also had to-- the person had to [37:24] match my level as well. Not just like I showed up there, you know, played around with [37:28] him. I needed a fight back. [37:31] I would arrange in advance who was gonna come. Maybe some sparring, maybe I'd do [37:35] wrestling, maybe I'd hit the weights, maybe a striking workout. [37:40] So I had this, let's say I always had this tough and [37:43] scientific approach to it. So I believe that more than anything, I didn't want to [37:51] lose rather than I wanted to win, you know? Of course, winning is [37:54] also a huge pleasure, but more than anything, I just didn't want to lose. [37:59] - So in all those hard training sessions, you were thinking about not losing. [38:03] That's the fuel. [38:04] - The fuel. [38:04] - Four to five hours every single day. [38:06] - Every day. [38:07] - There is a story that I heard. Sadulaev, [38:11] the legendary wrestler, told a story that he went to a hotel, [38:15] I think it was in Moscow, to train in the gym, and he was the [38:19] only-- It was during the night, I don't know. He was the only one who was there. [38:24] And you came down- ... And you actually trained together. And he said he, he [38:30] said a lot of great things about you. He said that you gave him some [38:33] really deep wisdom, which helped him to win the gold medal, at the Olympic Games. [38:42] I'm curious, could you tell us now what you told him? What kind of wisdom did you give [38:46] him? [38:47] - I can't remember exactly, but we had really great conversations. [38:51] - It's a great story that the two of you, like two legends like that, just [38:54] met completely by chance. [38:56] - Well, look, he's a two-time Olympic champion, right? [38:59] - Right. [39:00] - I think he doesn't skip his training either. He never missed one back [39:04] then. I believe that we both ended up there because we both, [39:08] you know, hate to lose, and we both really want to [39:12] win. And, you know, recently I came across this idea. [39:17] There are athletes who simply want to win, and then there are some for [39:21] whom victory isn't enough. They want domination. [39:25] I believe that he is one of those as well. They want domination. And for [39:29] that, what does a person have to do? They have to train. [39:34] They have to grind morning and night. And [39:38] there was this thing with us. After the morning, my father never [39:42] let us sleep. When I say the morning, I mean after Fajr, [39:46] the dawn prayer. He just wouldn't sleep himself, so we couldn't either. [39:51] So every morning, six, seven, we'd be out doing our warm-up. [39:55] Some people might call it a warm-up, but when you show up at the stadium in the [39:59] morning, you run five kilometers, you do sprints, you work with [40:03] resistance bands, you work on the pull-up bar, you do push-ups, [40:07] dips, jumps, you know the bands then work with a partner, drilling and so on. [40:15] That's about two hours of work. You drop two, two and a half kilos [40:19] there. Not really a warm-up, but Father always called it that, right? [40:23] That was a full morning training at seven AM. Then I came [40:27] home to rest, and at four o'clock, we'd head to the gym. [40:32] The training would start at five o'clock and end at seven. [40:36] By eight, I'd be home, and by eleven, I'd rest up. [40:41] And yet I kept thinking that something was missing. [40:45] Like, I know that I have a start, a competition coming up in [40:49] like forty or thirty days, and I would wake up and I'd be like, "Let me go [40:53] to the sea. I'm gonna go down to the sea, do some running, some sprints on [40:57] the sand, work out, and so on." And so many times, I ended [41:01] up going out for a third training session as well. [41:05] Sometimes Father would say, "Rest. In the morning, we're gonna have a heavy [41:08] workload." But sometimes I wouldn't tell Father. I'd just go out at [41:12] night, head out, and train. At night when everyone's asleep, when [41:16] nobody's around, I'd grab one of my close friends, give them a call, have [41:20] them pick me up, then hop in the car and head to the sea. I'd train [41:24] for an hour or an hour and a half, come back, and crash. [41:28] Next morning, I'd get up and start all over again. And just this routine, nonstop. [41:34] And when I see guys, you know, when they do just one training session or [41:37] like they say, "On Wednesday, we have a morning training, then an [41:41] evening sauna session." [41:43] What do you mean? You have to fight in fifty days. You have a [41:47] huge fight ahead and you want to take a rest in the middle of the week? [41:52] Well, rest on Sunday. [41:54] On Saturday, do a morning training, hit the sauna in the evening, take a complete rest on [41:58] Sunday, and start all over again on Monday. [42:02] That was just my approach. Everyone does it differently. I don't know. [42:06] I just think it has to be in your head. You've got to want it incredibly badly. [42:12] - So you believe that to be a champion, you have to train like that, you have to be that serious [42:17] for the majority of people? [42:18] - Let's say I believe that to be at the top, the top tier, right? [42:25] One of the best in the world [42:28] A person has to always be, you know, a little bit, let's say [42:32] just a little bit crazy, but in a good sense of the [42:36] word. You have to be addicted to it and to want this incredibly [42:40] bad. You have to take a fanatical approach to the training process. [42:45] Just showing up and working out, that's what hundreds of [42:49] thousands of guys are doing around the world. To stand out from [42:53] that, from this crowd, let's say, who have the exact [42:57] same goals as you do, to stand out from that, you have [43:01] to take a fanatical approach to it. [43:03] - Well, look, I'm training with John Danaher. [43:07] And they train like that too. They train three times a day. [43:10] And it actually feels right this way. I mean, of course, this is how you have to train. [43:15] - 'Cause of that, John has one of the best- [43:17] - Yeah, he makes champions [43:18] - ... students in the world, and after all, they don't just take some random place. [43:21] I mean, they're not somewhere in the middle. [43:24] They're at the top, and look at their whole approach. Some people... [43:31] Look, a person with that kind of approach just can't be somewhere in the middle. It's [43:35] impossible. If you have a fanatical attitude, the right attitude toward [43:41] the training process, on top of that, you have to be fanatical about it. [43:47] You love what you do, and in the end, [43:51] there will be results. Well, just look at John and look where his guys are. [43:55] He creates champions. He finds a champion in everyone, across every category, right? [44:01] - He creates champions, not just one or two, [44:05] but all of them. He finds a champion in everyone, across every category. [44:11] - Look, the people who come to him, he has a system, let's say, right? [44:15] Under this roof, under his roof, there is a system. [44:19] People come here, and they become champions in this system. [44:24] So there are people there who are champions. These are specific established names. [44:30] And there are other people who came and left. [44:34] They entered that black room, so to say, an uncomfortable place. They went in, [44:40] stood for a year, a year and a half or two, and left. Nobody [44:44] talks about them. These are the people who came in, broke mentally, [44:48] and left, and there aren't just a few of them. There are a lot. [44:52] Usually, most people give up. There are many who give up, but [44:56] then there are the ones who come in and stay there for a long time. [45:00] Long, long time. And after some time, they achieve success. They become the best. [45:08] They prove to themselves that once they enter the system, they could stay [45:12] there for a long time, endure, and become the best. [45:16] They prove that they are already capable of many things. [45:21] They can be trusted to supervise big, important projects. [45:26] I would even say, for example, 2,000 years ago, they [45:30] could easily rule entire cities. [45:34] So a person who has gone through it physically, who has lived [45:38] through it, who has faced challenges, passed the tests, they are capable of a lot, [45:45] highly capable. You don't just walk into martial arts and become the [45:49] best. It's very difficult. It means that [45:52] you go through pain, you make sacrifices, you give [45:56] your time, you face setbacks and failures in training. [46:01] The mental strength and capacity mean a lot there. And [46:05] when I talk about his system, look, I mean those schools that [46:08] became the best, let's say, in football or in [46:12] freestyle wrestling or, let's say, in MMA, in grappling, [46:16] or in judo. It's really hard to enter one of the best [46:20] schools in the world, to stay when they are breaking you, [46:23] throwing you, choking you, to improve as a person [46:27] and as an athlete, and to become a champion. It takes [46:31] at least 12 years, 10 to 12 years, maybe 15. For some, it took longer. [46:39] And to get through the grind for these 15 years and [46:42] then to break through and become the best is worth a lot. [46:47] - Have you had those tough moments where you're almost broken psychologically? [46:53] You know, just sitting there, finding it hard to breathe, [46:57] and everything is going wrong, lost in some situations. [47:03] And when you were young, was there ever a moment like that? [47:08] 'Cause the guys from Dagestan on the team, [47:11] really great guys, by the way, all say they've never seen you broken in training, [47:18] not even losing really. But when you were young, did it ever happen? [47:23] - Look, I've been in this grind since I was a kid. [47:27] Wherever my father coached, there were always... Let's take the [47:31] year 2004, for example. My father put together [47:35] the Dagestan national team for combat Sambo and in mixed martial [47:39] arts, which was called no-holds-barred fighting. There were [47:42] training camps, too. I was 15. It was the winter of 2004, [47:49] and I was the youngest guy there. The others were, let's [47:53] say, between 22 and 30, all active [47:57] world champions. At that time, I was, like, 14, 15 years old. [48:03] I wrestled with them, grappled, was in this uncomfortable environment for myself, [48:09] where we always had the rule that the youngest has to do everything, [48:13] and he is always wrong, and I had to deal with that. [48:19] Especially in the gym, they throw you, hit you again and again. [48:23] You have to show up morning and evening, day after day. This [48:27] place hardens you. They say How the steel was tempered. [48:31] Steel isn't tempered for nothing. How many times do you have to [48:35] strike the steel before it becomes a sword? That doesn't just happen by itself. [48:41] - Did you believe in yourself then? [48:43] - Some of the guys who were at those camps back then, they're grown men [48:47] now. Even then, they were older than me by [48:50] 10, 12, maybe 15 years. And they always used to say, "Khabib, [48:56] we honestly thought you were going to become some kind of [48:59] scholar or scientist." Because my father [49:03] was always making me read and write, read and write. [49:09] I would copy out entire books by hand. There was always [49:13] this control. It wasn't like he'd say, "Khabib, go do this", [49:17] and you could just walk away and not do it. When he said, "Go do it", you [49:21] did it. My father never forgot anything. He had a [49:24] phenomenal memory. He'd be like, "Did you do it?" And everything he [49:28] told you, he remembered. He just did. [49:31] - He checked you. [49:31] - He was like, "Come here." And he'd check. I knew it wasn't something [49:35] I could get away with. So, you know, since childhood, I [49:39] was lucky that my father always kept me close, and I [49:44] found myself in this environment among fighters who at that time- [49:50] ... were, I don't know, they just didn't compete in America and Europe back [49:54] then. But in the post-Soviet space, they were the best at that time. [50:00] And it helped me a lot to become mentally strong. [50:04] - Tell me more about your father. You've read a lot. [50:09] You didn't just fight. You were well-rounded and you told several stories about [50:13] this. There was a book, what is it called? Countries and Peoples. [50:19] - Yes, from my childhood. [50:20] - It is, really. [50:22] - Yes. [50:22] - And it went on- [50:23] - The approach was the same. [50:25] - Tell that story because I think it's important for the parents listening to us [50:29] to understand this. You're not just trying to create a [50:33] champion. You're trying to raise a well-rounded person, a [50:36] wise person, a person with depth. [50:40] - Yes, you have to give the right motivation to kids with proper [50:44] communication. My father was very good at this. I [50:47] now realize interacting with my own kids how wise he [50:51] was and how deeply he understood this. [50:55] Because when a child is eight, 10 years old, and when they are [50:59] just beginning to form as a person, it is important to have [51:03] the right approach. I now understand how farsighted my father's approach was. [51:09] First, he tried not to give me anything for free. Only [51:13] sometimes I could get something for free. For example, before a [51:17] holiday, like Eid al-Fitr or before school [51:21] started, Father would give money. I'd go buy [51:25] clothes at the market for back to school, that kind of thing, you know? [51:29] And at other times, he always told me, "Well, if you want it, you need to [51:33] earn it. You want me to give you money just like that?" [51:37] There would be some work around the house and so on that I had to do. [51:41] And I knew that encouragement would always be there. [51:45] My father always had this kind of approach. He set a very [51:49] strong personal example, very strong, and I really learnt a [51:53] lot from him. Took a lot. And then, as you mentioned, [51:57] there was the book, Countries and Peoples. Someone gave it to [52:01] him as a gift. My father read through it, and he realized [52:05] that it was perfect for me, for a child who was 10, 11, maybe 12 at the time. [52:13] That book was part of my life for about two or three years, something like that. [52:18] - It was about 193 countries. The geography, history, all the details. [52:23] - For each country, it describes its geographical location, [52:27] which countries it bordered, its major rivers, mountains, [52:32] cities, history, economy, finances. Just brief [52:35] information about every country. My father said, "You'll [52:39] tell me about each country, and I'll give you money for it." [52:44] And I thought, "All right." [52:46] I knew this was like my own little capital just sitting there waiting for me. [52:51] All I had to do was come, take that book, read it, understand [52:55] it. Then my father would take the book and say, [52:58] "Now, tell me what you read." And he would check. [53:02] He would look through it. The countries were arranged alphabetically. A [53:06] for Andorra, Angola, and so on. B for Belgium, Brazil, and [53:10] so on. Everything went in alphabetical order. I started [53:14] from A and read them all straight to the very end. [53:18] Like every single time when I needed the money, I did [53:22] that. And for example, I go over the first 40 countries, [53:26] he'd check a box, and then I continued. That's how my father would test me. [53:34] Let's just say that my knowledge of geography comes from back then. [53:41] - Did you realize how big the world was? [53:44] - No. [53:45] - As a child, you don't understand? [53:46] - At that time, I didn't understand. But since then, I've had this desire [53:50] to travel. I really wanted to travel, visit different [53:54] countries, see wonders of the world, the Colosseum, the pyramids. [53:59] But all of this is from childhood, from what I read and wrote. [54:04] It wasn't just about reading. I also had to rewrite it. I had to write it down. [54:10] I always wrote down what I read. And actually, [54:16] this is very good advice for parents, you know. They can use this [54:20] with their children too. They can tell them to sit down and copy books by hand. [54:28] First of all, eyesight improves. Reading improves. Writing, how you write improves. [54:36] Your handwriting. And it stays with you when you read and write. [54:41] It really develops a child. Not only I believe that, [54:46] I actually do advise parents to motivate their kids [54:50] this way. You can simply create some kind of challenge [54:55] that children benefit from and reward them for it after it is done. [55:02] This really helps develop a child's mind. [55:06] - I actually saw advice from the great writers [55:11] who said that they remembered doing the same thing when they were young. [55:15] When they first started writing, they just simply copied [55:19] other legendary writers. You read their work and then you type it out yourself, [55:26] and you start absorbing that style into your bloodstream. [55:29] - Well, it needs to be done in childhood. [55:32] When the child is ready to learn and his mind is open, [55:37] let's say as a metaphor, when his table is clean, [55:41] not occupied with clutter, then as a father, [55:45] you can help them place all the right things on the table in their proper place. [55:51] Let's say put the food in one place, flowers in another, something [55:57] like that. It is important. That's why I believe I was very lucky. My [56:04] father did the right thing. He provided me with the right kind of information, [56:09] and I learned a lot just from being around him. I [56:13] learned so much just from his presence. [56:16] He was there at home, and then we also went to competitions. [56:21] He was always there at trainings and at camps, so I absorbed a lot from him, [56:28] and it was interesting for me too. Of course, [56:34] when you're a teenager, sometimes you're tired, sometimes you want to [56:37] break free. All of that was there. But [56:44] my father had the right approach. He influenced me a lot and in the right way. [56:49] - And there's the physical component too of hard work. [56:53] There's a story you told about the time he made you dig a big hole [56:57] just because it was difficult. There's wisdom in that. [57:02] That you just need to work. You need to stay busy all the time. [57:05] - These were training camps from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven. [57:09] In the summer, we went to the mountains. There was a children's camp there, an [57:13] old Soviet-style pioneer camp where we stayed doing our runs in the forest. [57:19] Together, we built a small training area there with a rope, a [57:23] punching bag, a pull-up bar. We did sprints there. We pulled [57:27] resistance bands. After running in the mountains, we would come back [57:31] and work there. There were almost no mats. We built the base [57:35] ourselves. It had a dining room on the first floor and an [57:38] attic space where we slept. We would come downstairs, eat, [57:42] go outside, train in that little sports area, then run in the [57:46] forest. It was somewhere around twelve hundred meters [57:50] above sea level, a conifer forest. We spent the whole [57:54] summer there. There we'd train in the morning, then there was [57:58] nothing to do all day, and in the evening we had training sessions again. [58:03] But during the day, so we wouldn't be busy with unnecessary things, [58:07] my father sometimes gave us work. And we'd ask, "Why are we [58:11] digging this pit?" He'd say, "Well, people used to use it like a [58:15] refrigerator. When you dig two or three meters down, it [58:18] is cold inside. You can put milk there, cheese, things like that, so the [58:23] food does not go bad." And we were like, "Okay, but do [58:27] we really need these refrigerators every day?" [58:30] So in that sense, this was his approach back then. He always had this [58:34] kind of unique approach. [58:36] - Well, what's the philosophy here? That you gotta be busy all the time, [58:40] working hard, doing something difficult. [58:42] - Yes, it's very dangerous to give a child free time in [58:46] adolescence. They should always be busy learning new [58:50] information, improving, acquiring new skills. A person [58:54] should always be busy. When you're sixteen, well, what can be on your [58:58] mind? You should constantly develop and improve. [59:03] And by this time, you should already, I believe, have decided what you want to [59:06] become. You should already be investing in what you want to turn into. [59:15] - By the way, you had several very good conversations with Nurlan, with [59:19] Adam, which I highly recommend. In one of them, your brother [59:23] Abubakar told a story that when you were young, [59:27] there were several street fights, maybe many, I don't know. He [59:31] said he was the one who got you into it. You were kind of bigger, [59:35] and he needed protection at that time. You were that protection. [59:39] Can you tell us these stories? How often did you fight on the streets of Dagestan? [59:46] - Well, let's start with the fact that I never bullied anyone. Never. [59:50] Although I physically could bully, yes, let's say I had the capability. [59:56] I wasn't the kind of person who started the fights. [60:00] - You didn't start? [60:01] - I didn't. Well— [60:03] - Tried to finish. [60:04] - Well, maybe there were some moments, but mostly no. Mostly I didn't start. [60:10] Abubakar, sure, he was like that. [60:13] In my circle, I had some guys who were a little bit like that. [60:17] - He said that he's a bit of— [60:19] - He was a troublemaker. [60:21] He was a troublemaker, and because of him, I got into trouble many times. [60:27] When you're, let's say, fourteen, [60:29] fifteen years old and your brother is fighting. You don't [60:33] really ask who's right or who's wrong. You just go in, [60:37] you start to, as we say, you interfere. You just have [60:41] to go in, right? But when you're older, more conscious, [60:45] when you're twenty, twenty-five or thirty years old, [60:49] this is when you really start telling him, [60:53] "You know, Abubakar, I think you're wrong here. Yes, [60:57] we'll finish this right now, but in the future, I wouldn't want [61:01] you to get involved because I think it's wrong, right?" [61:05] Well, as kids, we just didn't ask. We just went right in. [61:09] When we moved to Makhachkala in 1999, [61:13] let's say the end of 1999, so there were—we were many brothers, [61:20] more than ten of us. We lived in one house. Some were in school, some [61:24] in college, some in university. But we all had one routine. We [61:28] trained in the morning, then went to school. We'd come home, rest, [61:32] do homework, then train in the evening, come home and rest, [61:36] without mothers, just by ourselves. Father gathered [61:40] everyone. He took in close friends and family, his [61:43] nephews, cousins, relatives, those who didn't have a father, [61:47] and so on. He took them in, and we all lived in one house. We [61:51] cooked, cleaned, did laundry all by ourselves. It was like, [61:55] well, some kind of army life, you know? And when the brothers had some problems, [62:03] let's say misunderstandings, we didn't go easy on those guys. [62:10] And even those who lived around there near that house, [62:14] in that district, in the settlement, everyone knew that there were lots [62:18] of brothers living there. So they had to be careful. And we had a football field [62:25] there. It was right in front of the house, and everyone who came to play there, [62:32] we constantly had fights there, misunderstandings. There were older brothers. [62:39] They were always watching us, keeping us from trouble. "Don't do this. Don't do" [62:43] that. Watch your mouth." But we had our own little group. [62:47] The age difference between us was maybe two, three [62:51] years. There were five or six of us. We'd always go outside and play football. [62:58] If our team was losing, then the game would just [63:02] turn into a whole different sport, and that's how we were growing up. [63:07] We spent six, seven years there, almost ten years. We were living together, growing, [63:15] training. A lot has happened over that time, but I was never... [63:21] Well, maybe just a couple of times, okay? Mostly, I was [63:25] never the initiator of fights with some exceptions. [63:30] I just remember since childhood, my father always told me, [63:34] "You don't need to use force on the street." My father looked at all of this [63:41] in a completely different way. [63:44] - What is your understanding of the difference between the street fight and sports? [63:49] - There is a very big difference. I saw many fights where [63:56] if you put those same guys into sparring, in wrestling, MMA or combat Sambo, [64:03] one guy could beat the other very easily. But the street is [64:07] completely different. There are no rules, no referees, no points. [64:13] You just fight there, and it's totally different. [64:18] I can say I actually had a major turning point in my life. [64:26] Let's say the one that, in terms of psychology, really changed my whole attitude [64:33] towards MMA. [64:37] Back in twenty oh two, twenty oh three, my father kept me in wrestling. [64:42] He trained MMA combat Sambo, but wanted me to stay [64:46] in wrestling. My cousin, who was older than me by a couple of months, [64:52] he was training with my father. His freestyle wrestling was weak, [64:56] so my father sent him to me, to the place where I was training. [65:00] It was called the School of Higher Sports Mastery. The local guys [65:04] from the city know this place. He came to practice and got into it with a guy [65:11] in our gym who was heavier, maybe one [65:14] class heavier. This guy was the best in his weight, [65:18] winning Dagestan and the city too. So they got into a conflict. [65:25] They were arguing. My brother had just joined. He was new to [65:32] our freestyle wrestling gym, right? But I knew the other guy [65:36] well. They paired up and they got into it. Well, that's my brother, right? [65:42] So the guy goes, "Let's meet up after." And they [65:46] agreed, as we say, to step outside after the training. [65:50] I remember it was raining heavily, a real downpour. The guy brought his brother. I [65:58] came with mine. We went outside and they started fighting one-on-one. [66:05] I remember he shot in, lifted and took him down. [66:09] Abdurakhman, my brother, threw up a triangle and he choked him out. [66:15] When we went out, I was thinking Abdurakhman will lose to this guy. I even [66:21] visualized it happening, the whole thing. Like, this guy beats him, and then [66:27] I start fighting. Well, I'm not going there for my brother to lose. [66:31] In my head, I was getting into a fight. [66:34] But he threw him locked up in a triangle. For the first time I saw [66:38] with my own eyes how someone chokes another person with a [66:42] triangle and they lose consciousness. [66:45] - Wow. [66:46] - They fought, he put him to sleep. We had to pull them apart, me and other guys. [66:55] Fights over, Abdurrahman won. And on the way home, I'm like, "Abdurrahman, wow. [67:01] You impress me." I came home and immediately told my father. [67:07] I said... That was in 2002 or '03, if I'm not mistaken. [67:12] I am 14 years old. I said, "I'm switching to combat Sambo." [67:17] I said, "What Abdurrahman did, the one he choked out, he's [67:20] not just anyone in the gym. He's one of the best wrestlers, [67:24] but he couldn't do anything." [67:27] My father said, "You'll go to wrestling, but you'll come to me, [67:31] I'll teach you. You'll learn techniques here and so on. [67:36] But I want you to gain wrestling skills." I started going three [67:40] days to train with my father, three days to wrestling. [67:44] And at that moment, I realized that no matter how strong the wrestler is, [67:49] lying on the back is where the wrestling normally ends, [67:53] but MMA only begins there. And I was like, [67:58] I thought, "I need this. I need this mixed style." I realized this was for me. [68:03] I started going to my father's trainings, despite that he didn't [68:07] let me. He didn't want me to do fighting. I think most people [68:11] don't know this. My father wanted me to do freestyle wrestling or [68:15] judo, but in my head, I already had this mixed style. I [68:18] always wanted to compete. I was already getting tapes to [68:22] watch. I always wanted to compete where there are no [68:26] rules, where I could fully use my skills. [68:29] - Maximum freedom. [68:30] - Yes, judo, Sambo, freestyle, grappling, [68:34] jujitsu. More people knew jujitsu than grappling. [68:39] After that, I switched, and from there my journey slowly [68:42] started, which I had already begun. That's when I started the amateur journey. [68:49] Then when I started getting good results as an amateur, I [68:53] realized that I can switch to pro and achieve success. [68:57] Sambo. In combat Sambo. Combat Sambo. I competed in [69:01] all kinds of sports. Everything that involves wrestling and [69:05] fighting. I competed everywhere. I competed in freestyle, in [69:09] judo, in grappling, in combat Sambo. I competed in sport [69:13] Sambo, in hand-to-hand combat, in pankration. My father [69:17] put me in all competitions. He would say, "You have a [69:20] competition here and another one there. Now you are [69:24] preparing for this one. You will compete in this weight, under these [69:28] rules, in this sport." And he was sending me everywhere. He would tell [69:32] me, "You will need this in the future. The more competition experience you have, [69:36] the more relaxed and confident you'll feel. It builds up over time." [69:40] When I was young, I was losing as well. I go to a judo competition, [69:44] win two matches and lose two matches. I would ask, "Father, why are [69:48] you sending me there? This is not my sport." And he'd say, "No, go and compete." [69:53] So, okay, I went, I cut weight. The next day you [69:57] come in, you see 50 competitors in your weight class. You [70:01] let this weight, this competitive energy pass [70:05] through you, and psychologically you get better, better, [70:09] better each time. You become more relaxed about it. [70:13] And this moment really affected me, although then I didn't [70:17] agree with my father. Back then I thought, "Why should I [70:21] compete in other sports?" He said, "You can wrestle, right? Well, go wrestle." [70:28] I was saying, "But judo isn't my sport. It's hard for me there." [70:32] He says, "Well, you went on four times. Look, you won [70:36] twice, then lost twice. You competed four times. You're [70:40] 15 years old. You're just developing. [70:43] Do you know how valuable this experience is for you? [70:47] Four matches in one day." Now when I'm coaching, [70:51] I understand the psychological approach, how important it is. I realize now how [70:58] correctly he prepared me for the big stage. [71:03] The preparation was already happening then when I was [71:06] 15 years old. For example, when I went into the biggest [71:11] fight in combat sports history, when I fought in [71:15] 2018 here in Las Vegas. At that point, I was already at my peak, prime time. [71:23] I was 30 years old. I went through all possible competitions as an amateur [71:29] and a professional. And you know what? I was ready. [71:35] This preparation, it started back then when I was 15. [71:40] It's not like they give you a fight and you prepare for two months. [71:44] Preparation starts long before you even step into the octagon. [71:50] - So this experience of competitions, which started at 15, it continued, it expanded. [71:55] - Yeah, of course. [71:56] - So can you explain what was going on in your head? [72:01] - I didn't want to lose. I just didn't. It [72:05] never occurred to me that I could get hurt, that someone could [72:09] hurt me, that I might break a finger somewhere. I never [72:12] had that in my head, that I could get hit, that I'd get a scratch, and so on. [72:18] I don't know if you can call it perfectionism. [72:21] I didn't want to lose. And to not lose, I knew I needed [72:25] to compete a lot and improve. Training is [72:29] one thing, but competing is different. I understood that the more [72:33] I competed, the more experience I would gain. I had to go through it. [72:38] It was constantly on my mind. This understanding that I [72:42] must compete a lot came to me at an early age, since [72:46] I was fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, and I [72:50] never stopped thinking about it. So it was always in the back of my mind. [72:56] - Were you confident that you would win? [72:58] - In my youth? No. [73:00] - Were you afraid to lose? [73:01] - Yeah, in my youth, I wasn't always so sure. I just wasn't. [73:05] Because I never stood out. Yes, I had a coach for a [73:09] father, and how many, how many trainers have kids who [73:14] compete but aren't successful? And then when I went to [73:18] the big leagues, you know, I had already fought. I had done [73:22] sixteen professional fights across the post-Soviet space. [73:26] Later, when I was already signed to the UFC, [73:30] there I already had this feeling. You know, with [73:33] each fight, I was getting mentally stronger. [73:37] My mind was becoming more and more solid, like concrete. [73:43] When I went out there, I knew, yes, these are fights. Yes, you can take a hit. [73:50] Yes, anything can happen when knees, elbows, fists are flying, [73:55] when you can get caught in a choke, you know? [73:59] But I thought, "If they don't knock me out, how will they beat me? [74:05] I have fifteen minutes. Fifteen minutes is enough to make a person tired." [74:11] I'm like, "Okay, if you wanna stop me, come here. I'll give you that chance. [74:17] Let's get in the octagon." I had this impatience during fight week. [74:23] I wanted to go in there and feel my opponent. I just [74:27] wanted to be inside the cage for them to close [74:31] us in, for the referee to say, "Ready? Ready. Fight." [74:36] And here I wanted to feel, to grapple with him and [74:40] feel his strength, his skills, his energy, [74:44] and for it not to stop. And with any opponent I [74:48] felt from the beginning, and I didn't actually have superhuman strength. [74:53] But from the beginning, when I grabbed them in the first minute and [74:57] then in the sixth or seventh minute, I could feel them fading. [75:04] I was, let's say, like squeezing this energy out of them, [75:09] and I was getting better and better minute by minute. [75:15] - Can you break down the technical details of your top pressure? [75:19] That pressure you put on in wrestling, on the ground, all of it. [75:26] How does it work? Can you explain the philosophy behind it? [75:29] - Over the years, I've learned to use my strength properly. There's [75:33] this sport called aikido. I don't like it much, but [75:37] I like their philosophy, where your strength might work against you. [75:43] I think for a lot of listeners, this is gonna be a brand-new sport. But there [75:47] is this sport called aikido, and the whole philosophy [75:50] behind it is using your opponent's force against them. That's what I learned to do. [75:57] And I have learned to force an opponent into positions [76:01] where they have to escape wasting their energy. Like when we were sparring [76:05] yesterday. That's exactly what I wanted. I wanted you to feel that energy, [76:11] that heavy top pressure. We could have just played around. [76:15] I could have gone easy on you, but I wanted you to feel the real heavy pressure. [76:21] And of course, please don't think it was a sign of disrespect. It's quite the opposite. [76:25] - No, it was respect. [76:26] - I just wanted you to feel that, [76:30] you know, how exhausting it can be. I think you felt it yourself that it [76:34] was a bit different from the kind of grappling you've dealt [76:38] with before. I'm sure of it. [76:40] - The only one who's even close to that is, I mean, you're the absolute number one. [76:44] But the only thing is, when I trained with Roger Gracie in a different sport, you get that [76:48] same feeling with him. Like, the guy is just insanely heavy. [76:50] - Mm-hmm. Pressure. Pressure. Well, Roger, he's the [76:54] greatest, too. He's the greatest in his own sport. What [76:58] makes a person unique is his style, his style and his approach [77:04] to his work. I always approach my craft very professionally, you know, [77:10] respectfully. I believe that if you're gonna be in this game, [77:15] in this sport, you have to completely dedicate yourself to it. [77:20] - But I think you had a deep understanding of how to break an opponent, both [77:23] physically and psychologically, just looking at your style. [77:28] - I've always been right there, always fighting for position. I always-- [77:34] Look, I mean that I just always had this thought in my head. [77:41] My grandfather always told me, "A dog that latches onto that one weak [77:45] spot always wins." [77:48] It's the same with a fighter. When you're fighting on pure instinct, you [77:52] feel your opponent's weakness. You know where they're weak, and you have to [77:56] keep pressing right there. For example, let's say I'm fighting Conor, [78:03] right? His strengths are his striking, his timing and his speed, his boxing. [78:11] Why would I stand and strike with him? What am I supposed to do? I have to [78:15] put pressure on his weak spot. So, [78:18] That's what separates the fighters who reach success, the [78:22] highest level of success, and become the best of the best. [78:27] They know how to find an opponent's weakness, and [78:31] they pressure it relentlessly. So, mm, [78:36] so it all comes down to having the right strategy here. [78:40] - Your fight with Conor, I think, was the biggest [78:43] fight in UFC history. That's for sure. [78:46] Well, actually, in all of sports. Do you think there will ever be another [78:50] fight of that magnitude in the UFC? Is it even possible? [78:55] - Well, let's look at the history here. [79:00] I mean, our sport is still very young, say thirty-five [79:04] years old, starting from the '90s. Put it this way. [79:09] Take, for example, the sport most similar to MMA, [79:14] which is, well, let's say boxing. How old is boxing? A hundred and fifty years? [79:19] Like, when you think boxing, what pops into your head? Thrilla in Manila? [79:24] - Yeah, yeah. Well, I love Mike Tyson a lot too, so. [79:27] - Well, Tyson had big fights, but Mike Tyson never had that, [79:31] Signature rival like Muhammad Ali had in Joe Frazier. [79:35] Yeah, he just didn't have one. [79:38] I mean, who do we have? Evander Holyfield? Look, Holyfield-Tyson is no Muhammad Ali. [79:44] Take Ali and Frazier, Thrilla in Manila, right? [79:48] People called it the greatest rivalry, [79:51] and it still is. In the 20th century, there was nothing [79:55] that could compare. In the 21st century, the only thing you could [79:59] compare to it, purely based on the numbers, is Pacquiao and Mayweather. [80:04] Yes, there was public interest, but there wasn't the energy that there was with Muhammad [80:08] Ali and Joe Frazier. [80:11] - Yeah, if I can just pause for a second, I'll check on Perplexity. [80:15] List the biggest boxing fights of all time. It's Ali and Frazier, like you said. [80:19] - Yeah, yeah. [80:20] - The first, the third. [80:22] - Well, when he lost, and then the third fight, the Thrilla in Manila. [80:25] - And Foreman, I must say Ali versus Foreman. [80:28] - Well, Foreman, that was the year, I think, '74, right? [80:31] - The fight was watched by up to a billion people worldwide. [80:34] - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one of those things. Politics got mixed into it too. [80:39] Well, it was actually a very big fight. [80:41] - Sugar Ray Leonard, Duran, Sugar Ray Leonard versus Thomas Hearns, [80:46] Hagler versus Hearns. [80:47] - Well, Hagler. Hagler and Duran in Montreal. [80:51] Sugar Ray Leonard and Duran in Montreal when they fought, when [80:55] he admitted after the fight that he lost the mental game and broke down before [80:59] the fight. But then Sugar Ray beat him later. [81:02] - Yeah, he came back and won. [81:03] - Yeah. Well, if you look at it out of everything that stands out, I think, [81:08] You can mention Frazier and Muhammad Ali. And there was also [81:12] Joe Louis against German Max Schmeling. Hitler stood [81:16] behind Schmeling, and Roosevelt stood behind Louis. For those who don't know [81:20] this story, I just watched it recently. [81:24] It was something incomparable. They were so big. They were two of the most, [81:29] the most famous athletes of their time. Roosevelt was promoting Joe Louis, you know? [81:37] At that moment for America, it was like something incredible that a [81:40] white president was promoting a Black world champion. [81:45] And on the other hand, Hitler stood behind Schmeling. [81:48] - It was what? Nineteen thirty-six, nineteen thirty-eight. They had- [81:52] - They fought twice? [81:53] - Twice. [81:54] - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They fought two times. [81:56] - This wasn't just a good boxing match, just a good fight. [82:00] This was politics. Those were nations. [82:03] - This was politics. This was nations. [82:05] - Everything. [82:06] - It all came together. [82:07] - And it's the same thing with Ali too. Muhammad Ali with the Vietnam [82:11] War, all that stuff. [82:12] - Yes, yes. [82:13] - And his, and even religion is tied into it. Everything here came together. [82:17] - They simply went beyond sports. [82:20] It was the exact same thing when I fought Conor. That fight [82:24] went beyond our sport. It impacted every sport because [82:30] athletes of all kinds of different sports, [82:33] everyone who loves to compete, it didn't matter if it was [82:37] football, basketball, soccer, or boxing, everyone was [82:41] following this. And honestly, will there be a fight like that? [82:47] Well, it's hard for me to say, but I think it'll happen. It'll happen [82:51] for sure. There will always be champions. There will always be rivalries. [82:55] But when it'll happen, that's just a matter of time. [82:59] - So it's not entirely about the athletes. It's about everything combined. [83:02] - Yeah. It's everything combined. The way he talked, what he stirred up, the lines [83:06] he crossed, touching on family, religion. And [83:09] then somehow on one side you had Conor, this really [83:13] interesting champion who knew how to hype himself up, and on the other side, you [83:17] had this undefeated somebody from nowhere, from the mountains. [83:22] You know how it is. It all somehow, all of it just kind of happened naturally. [83:28] And it wasn't staged. It was real. We had a real [83:32] rivalry, unlike the way a lot of people now just hype up interest in a fight, [83:36] but people feel that energy. It doesn't go anywhere. [83:40] People can tell what's real and what's fake. And because of that, we went, [83:44] we went beyond our own sport. That's what made this fight so massive. [83:49] - Well, when you look into your heart back then and now, [83:53] did you have anger? Did you have hatred for him? [83:57] - Back then and even now, I'd still keep a cool head. [84:02] Nothing has changed. When you let your emotions take over, [84:06] when they're off the charts and you completely lose [84:10] control, that's a very bad place to be. So [84:15] you'll tire out faster. You'll fall. You'll fall for any kind of bait and so on. I [84:23] just knew that I needed to stay calm, composed, [84:29] to stick to the plan no matter what happened, and not go beyond my emotional limits. [84:37] This is a very, very dangerous moment when you give in to your emotions [84:45] You have to control them. Every single detail, every little thing [84:49] has to be perfectly in place. The second you let it all [84:53] slip, everything becomes a total mess. [84:57] So once the fight was finally done, I just let all my emotions out. [85:02] I had to step right in and prove it, and punish him, and show them [85:06] I'm better, that I'm better than him, and put a final end to this whole [85:10] bitter rivalry. When all of that was over- [85:13] - Your emotions came out? [85:14] - ... that's when my emotions just went over the edge. But until the fight was [85:18] completely finished, starting from training, you know, [85:22] at the press conferences, at the weigh-ins, everywhere, in front of the media, [85:26] everywhere, I kept myself completely under control, and I was very good at it. [85:31] Honestly, looking back it's been almost eight years now. [85:37] Looking back, well, I'm a little surprised. At that point, I was a very [85:41] emotional guy, too. Over these eight years a lot has happened [85:45] in my life, but I'm surprised that I kept it together. And [85:49] well, you know, it wasn't easy for me to keep myself [85:53] within my limits, to keep myself under control like that. [85:57] But here, again, I'll come back to what I said, I was [86:01] very lucky. My father called me at that time I was here two months before the fight. [86:10] His advice helped me out so much because for me it was [86:15] not just that it mattered, it was actually the most important [86:18] thing for me back then just to know my [86:22] father's reaction, how he was taking everything [86:26] that was happening, because there was just so much media [86:30] coverage, so I knew my father was watching. [86:34] It was important for me to know his take. I'd call and [86:38] ask, and my father would even tell me things I hadn't even asked him [86:42] about. He'd bring it up on his own. Because you know the way it [86:46] is with us, between me and my father, in our traditions, in our [86:50] part of the world, in our family for generations, in our village, there's [86:54] just always this distance with your father. Like, when you walk in, there [86:58] are just so many things you can't let yourself do in front of your father. [87:02] You have to be like, sort of like a soldier in front of a [87:06] general, right? If you can even make that comparison. If a soldier [87:10] stands at attention like that, then with us it's even, even stricter. Like even, [87:18] just to give an example here. For instance, [87:22] imagine you're a father sitting there, right? And your two-year-old [87:26] kid walks up to you and wants to play with you. [87:29] You can't even, like, do that baby talk thing with your own kid. [87:33] - You don't have that kind of friendship. [87:35] - You know it's a friendship, but- [87:36] - It's different, yes. [87:37] - There's a certain distance that you must keep around your father. You always [87:41] have to be, like, completely buttoned up. [87:45] You have to stand like a soldier in front of your father. You don't let your emotions [87:49] take over. At that point, just to know [87:53] what my father thought, who was, like, all the way across the ocean, [87:57] who couldn't just fly out and be there to support his son [88:02] and just be there by my side. But for me, since he didn't have a [88:06] visa, I just had to know exactly what he thought. I didn't care what [88:10] anyone else thought. I didn't care about the opinions of, like, [88:14] millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions watching this [88:18] fight. I only ever cared about one person and his take, [88:22] what he thought and what he'd say to me. But I couldn't call him and say, [88:28] "Father, what do you think about this?" [88:30] Well, we never had that. Well, you had to wait. I would just call [88:34] and wait to hear what he'd say. And my father, he knew [88:38] exactly where to draw the line because he was in the exact [88:42] same position with his own father since his own father was still [88:46] around. And then he had a son, too, right? [88:50] And he understood me, how I felt about him, since his [88:53] relationship with his own father was the same way. [88:57] And in that sense, back then, my father really kept me grounded mentally. [89:02] He even told me something once. [89:08] Do you know how diamonds are, like, actually made? Under great pressure. [89:14] He says, "You're under great pressure, and you have a choice. [89:19] You can break down and give up, or you can get through it all [89:24] properly, clearly, with dignity. [89:28] Go in, prepare right, make weight, recover, go in, win, and [89:31] settle it once and for all." And those exact kinds of [89:35] moments, they really, they deeply impacted me. [89:40] - So because of those words, you could cut everything off? Focus. [89:45] - Well- [89:46] - Mentally. [89:47] - Mentally. Like, if a million people showed up right there [89:51] and told me right outside where I was staying, at the hotel, right? [89:55] Like, if a million people gathered right under my window and [89:59] said, "Hey, we've got your back." [90:01] And honestly, just one call from my father, it wouldn't even [90:05] compare, because that one call from my father, that one piece of [90:09] advice, his support, his voice, it charged me up [90:13] way more than absolutely everything else combined. [90:17] - But I must say, José Aldo, who is one of the greatest [90:21] fighters of all time, and still Conor was [90:25] arguably able to psychologically break him. [90:29] But with you, it seems like Conor was not able to mentally [90:33] affect you. Did he manage to get into your head even a little? [90:37] - No, not at all. I had a clear understanding that [90:44] physically and mentally I was just way stronger than him. I didn't doubt myself for [90:51] even 1%. Well, people, [90:56] they can say whatever they want. He's got a massive fan base too. [91:00] Maybe they won't agree with that. [91:03] But the Almighty gave me this unshakable confidence that is just really hard for [91:07] me to even put into words. And I just deeply believe that I was better than [91:15] him and that I was stronger than him, and that in this matchup, well, [91:21] I was supposed to win. I just had this rock solid faith in myself. [91:26] - Up until that moment, is it fair to say that this was your toughest fight? [91:32] - Up until that moment? [91:33] - Correct. [91:34] - One hundred percent. Because fighting's all psychology, you know? [91:40] It's a mental game. Mentally speaking, that was my toughest fight. [91:47] At that point, yeah. But a tougher fight came later. [91:50] - With Gaethje? [91:51] - With Gaethje. [91:52] - There were a lot of factors that made it so tough. [91:55] - Yes. [91:55] - So can you explain? You said somewhere that actually, [92:00] unfortunately, or at least from my perspective, unfortunately, we never [92:04] got to see your absolute limit. Were you, uh- [92:08] - Not in fights, no. You've never seen my limit in fights. [92:12] - But you said that Gaethje was the closest to it [92:17] 'cause of the whole process. Can you explain why it was a tough fight, [92:21] your last one? [92:22] - First and foremost, it was because I had lost my father. It was hard to pull [92:26] myself together. Everything piled up at once. My father was [92:30] gone. And training without my father, [92:35] without the person I was doing all of this for, the person I [92:39] wanted to become champion for, first and foremost, to prove to him, [92:44] uh, to prove to him that I could become the best. [92:50] And then the training camp itself, physically [92:54] I was not in the best shape. I had injury after injury after injury. [93:00] But mentally speaking, I stayed completely sharp. Well, this is when you [93:08] got injuries, your mental game can slip a little, [93:12] or things at home are going bad. All of that impacts a person. [93:16] One, two, three, four. All these things affect you. You become, let's say not, [93:22] not sharp. You lose your fire. Your fire [93:26] leaves you, your focus leaves you, your head is somewhere else. [93:30] Even though you are physically there, mentally you are somewhere [93:34] else. But I always stayed there. I knew it. [93:38] Nobody had any idea that was going to be my last fight. No [93:42] one knew about the talk I had with my mother. [93:45] - But you knew and you were sure? [93:46] - Well, I knew for myself. This is my last fight. I was never going to [93:50] step into the cage again. I knew it, and I had to finish it [93:54] right then and there because [93:57] putting myself through all of that yet again, it would have just been too [94:01] hard on me if I got injured and the fight fell through. [94:06] And putting my mother through all that stress again. I knew that all the [94:10] anxiety I go through for three months leading up to a fight, my mother [94:14] goes through it too. I understood all of that. I wanted to put an end to it because [94:20] we'd already had that talk. We already had an [94:23] agreement. All of that combined, I mean, mentally it just-- I was, [94:28] you know, I was right on the edge. Like, [94:32] it was a fine line and I really was on the edge. [94:37] - And I heard or maybe read somewhere [94:40] that you said you were already starting to miss it while the fight [94:44] was still going on. [94:46] - Yeah, inside the octagon. I knew it would never happen again. [94:50] I stepped in there and I just took it all in. I was fighting and just [94:55] every single moment, every moment, every single move, I felt it deep down. [95:02] And in my head, I already knew this was the final run. [95:07] Everything I'd been doing my entire life, it all came down to this. [95:11] That competitive rush, I'll never feel that anywhere else. [95:15] I knew deep down this was my last fight. [95:18] - What kind of feelings were those? [95:20] - I've never felt anything like that again. Those feelings could only be [95:23] experienced right there on that exact day, that very evening, with [95:27] that opponent inside that cage. I've never had them before that [95:31] night and never had them since. And I don't think I'll ever be [95:35] able to feel that way again. [95:38] I think Buvaisar said that these feelings, standing on the podium, [95:42] becoming an Olympic champion, you only feel them in that moment when [95:46] they announce you. You step onto the podium. That's it. [95:49] They announced you. You won. You leave. That's it. You [95:53] only feel them there. You don't feel them anywhere else. And athletes live for those [95:57] feelings. They train their whole lives for them. [96:01] - Do you ever think about that? That in our lives, if we're lucky, we [96:05] only get maybe one or two moments like that at that absolute peak. [96:10] - Yes. Yes. Yes. Very rarely. It's so rare. What is happiness really? The way I see [96:17] it is when you experience certain feelings for a very short [96:21] time. You can't be constantly happy. Like you achieve [96:25] something and then you're happy for years. It just doesn't work that way. [96:30] The Almighty didn't build us that way. You get there even when you [96:34] become a champion and you fully feel that moment, you [96:38] win. And then you wake up the next morning and that's it. Is that all I worked for? [96:44] There's nothing more like that. You know? Like, can I have seconds? [96:50] You can't have seconds. It's like in our cafeteria. Can I have seconds? [96:56] So well, you become champion, you win, then you wake up the next [97:00] day. That's it. Your daily routine continues. It doesn't end. [97:04] You've already got different things going on, different problems, other [97:08] tasks now, and you're like, "It all went by so fast." Then you wake [97:12] up the next day, pack your bags, head to the airport, fly out, [97:16] land back home, everyone's celebrating. And just like that, the [97:20] next day everyone's gone. That's it. Everyone lives their own life. And well... [97:27] But later on, there are moments, well, you know, [97:32] when you still feel the impact of that success, let's say. [97:37] Like let's say public recognition, for example, people's recognition [97:41] and recognition is legacy. A lot of people get it twisted when [97:45] we start talking about legacy. What even is a legacy? What does legacy mean, right? [97:52] For me personally, it is public recognition. Like [97:56] when people come up to you, like parents come up with their kid and they say, [98:00] "You know, you inspire our son to get into sports. You're a real role model [98:04] for him." And in that exact moment, it's like you just-- [98:10] you start to realize that none of this was in vain. [98:13] But here's the thing. Does everyone approach every champion like that? [98:17] Every successful person? Do people even come up to them at all? [98:22] That's the question. There are people who became champions. [98:26] There are people who rose to the top of their field, [98:30] but they just don't inspire anyone. [98:33] And well, people look at you like, "Yeah, you were a [98:37] champion, you know, but nobody wants to be like you." [98:41] There are so many people like that who achieve success, but they, [98:47] they don't inspire the younger generation because the youth, [98:53] they look at you and they just don't see you as a good person. [98:59] And looking at it that way, sports, it's such a double-edged sword. [99:06] - They lost themselves in it when they became champions. [99:09] Or maybe they never truly were. [99:13] If we can, I want to talk about MMA and football in that same context. [99:18] Let's start with MMA. Who do you think are the greatest fighters of all time? [99:24] You said you have a few favorites. Shogun, George St-Pierre, and Fedor Emelianenko. [99:33] Let's talk about those fighters and maybe others who interest you. They all [99:37] had different distinct styles. So tell me why Shogun. [99:41] You've always said that he was important to you as a fighter, and naturally [99:45] he had legendary moments in Pride in two thousand and five. [99:49] - His soccer kick. [99:50] - Yes, that's right. [99:51] - Well, Shogun Rua, when I was fifteen, [99:55] sixteen years old, he was the Pride champion. At that time, for [99:59] me, it was the best organization in the world. The best fighters in the
[100:03] world competed there. Fedor, Cro Cop, Shogun,
[100:07] Wanderlei Silva, Anderson Silva. Man, they had
[100:11] everybody. Overeem, Dan Henderson, the Nogueira
[100:14] brothers, the Emelianenko brothers. They were the best at
[100:18] that time for me and honestly for MMA as a whole. And
[100:22] right there in second place, in my opinion, shining right behind Fedor was Shogun.
[100:29] And the way he fights, no matter how they took him down, he'd get right back
[100:33] up. They couldn't do a thing to him. Yeah, his wrestling was lacking, but
[100:37] his striking, Thai clinch, punches, kicks,
[100:41] knees. When he landed those soccer kicks, well, he really
[100:44] appealed to me as a fighter. Very calm, careful, very emotionally restrained and,
[100:52] and his fight style. His style was actually at a very high level.
[100:56] The way he fought, no other fighter ever did.
[101:00] At that time, he really impressed me. Then he
[101:04] crossed over to the UFC and became the UFC champion.
[101:11] And UFC fights and the Pride fights at that time,
[101:15] I didn't have a computer, internet, none of that.
[101:19] I remember there was this video rental place. We'd grab
[101:23] tapes and watch all these fights with my father.
[101:29] Mauricio Shogun Rua to me was like the gold standard of a
[101:33] fighter back then. I'd say right alongside Fedor and George St-Pierre.
[101:40] - And by the way, when you watched the fights with your father, did you watch them for
[101:44] fun or analyze them too?
[101:47] - Mostly we analyzed them. My father always loved to analyze fights.
[101:52] We'd sit like this and he'd say this, this, chokes,
[101:56] striking, wrestling. We were constantly analyzing.
[102:00] There was a fight in two thousand and six or two thousand and
[102:03] seven. I don't even remember the exact year.
[102:07] Approximately around that time when George St-Pierre fought Sean Sherk.
[102:12] We even re-watched that fight a couple of times.
[102:16] Then George St-Pierre fought B.J. Penn,
[102:19] the second fight, I think, after the fourth round when there was a
[102:23] stoppage. Then, well, there were many, many fights
[102:27] and my father actually admired the fighting
[102:31] style, the fighting style of George St-Pierre.
[102:35] He really impressed us. And my father, my father always
[102:39] emphasized his timing of takedowns after striking how he closed the distance. Um,
[102:47] and honestly, my whole, you know, like teenage conscious
[102:51] years growing up, like my formative years transitioning
[102:54] into an adult, it was all tied to
[102:58] tied to Pride in its prime. And after the UFC bought
[103:02] Pride and those fighters crossed over, that whole boom
[103:06] in 2006, '7, '8 and '9, the rise of the UFC,
[103:12] I remember that era so vividly. My father and I re-watched so
[103:16] many of those UFC fights.
[103:19] - Well, I have to ask about Fedor. What can you say about him? He had some
[103:23] legendary fights. He beat Cro Cop, Big Nog, Mark Coleman.
[103:28] - Yeah, and Kevin Randleman. And then he had those
[103:32] legendary fights with the Japanese fighters who were big
[103:36] stars over there. Man, I loved it. Honestly, he inspired
[103:40] me just by the fact that he was from Russia and he was a Sambo
[103:44] fighter. He was closer to our school of training, Sambo, combat Sambo.
[103:50] And there was this moment back in 2004, the
[103:56] Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship. Can you imagine?
[104:00] 2004, the Dagestan Combat Sambo Championship, and Fedor showed up. He showed up.
[104:07] - He came.
[104:08] - To compete in the Dagestan Open Combat Sambo Championship while
[104:11] being the reigning Pride champion. I was 15 years old at the time.
[104:17] I was right there in the venue. My father actually invited him. He
[104:21] was sending out invitations to different schools back then. It was
[104:25] Stary Oskol where he used to train. Fedor's coaches were sent an invitation.
[104:32] He came with his brother, Alexander. They both made it to the finals back then.
[104:37] I just remember $5,000, $3,000, $1,000,
[104:41] first, second, third place. At heavyweight, they gave a car.
[104:45] When the two brothers arrived, they beat everyone to get to the finals.
[104:50] They didn't fight each other. One of them took first place. That was
[104:53] Fedor. Alexander took second place. I remember back then
[104:57] when he was warming up, I was standing next to him while he warmed up. It was this
[105:01] building, you know, a venue that fits maybe 1,500 people,
[105:05] and over there was this partition, like a wall, and everyone was
[105:09] warming up behind that wall. At that time, well, practically very few people even knew
[105:13] who Fedor was, but I knew Fedor. I knew who he was,
[105:17] that he was the Pride champion. At that time, he beat Nogueira, beat
... [transcript truncated due to length]
