Transcript [00:00] Quick note before we start. Big things [00:01] are coming to Ark Media. Somewhere in [00:03] the small gaps of time between putting [00:05] out three episodes each week. We've been [00:08] secretly working on something we think [00:10] all our listeners are going to be really [00:12] excited about. We're announcing [00:14] everything live on October 5th. If you [00:16] want to be the first to hear about it, [00:18] RSVP to our virtual announcement event. [00:21] You can find the sign up link in the [00:22] show notes. See you there. [00:24] >> It's not like the season 1 2 3 4. It's [00:27] something else. Now there's a real [00:29] story, a real event that when you follow [00:32] the real events, you got to be very [00:34] careful about what you do. And I felt [00:36] like that there's a that there's a [00:38] mission here to tell a way bigger story [00:41] than, you know, just another season of [00:43] FA. We knew that we had to tell our [00:48] truth because you hear so many stories, [00:51] people trying to say that the October [00:52] 7th wasn't real, that it it was some [00:55] army things, a war. No, we wanted to [00:58] show to the world this is what happened. [01:13] This message is sponsored by the Israel [01:15] Democracy Institute. [01:18] Every election cycle in Israel is [01:20] accompanied by the words, "This is the [01:22] most consequential election in history." [01:24] It's become a cliche, but this time it [01:27] may actually be true. As followers of [01:29] Israeli politics, you know how hard it [01:31] can be to distill the issues from [01:33] partisan spin, to go behind the [01:35] headlines to understand what's really [01:37] going on. If you enjoy the kind of [01:39] thoughtful, fact-based conversations we [01:41] have on this podcast, I think you'll [01:43] appreciate the work of the Israel [01:45] Democracy Institute, IDI, a leading [01:48] nonpartisan center of research and [01:50] action. IDI offers practical proposals [01:53] for strengthening Israeli democracy and [01:56] clear, accessible analysis of the [01:58] biggest challenges facing the Jewish [02:00] state. Their explainers on everything [02:02] from Israel's electoral system to the [02:04] ultraorththodox draft make complex [02:06] issues easier to understand, and their [02:09] regular polling and public opinion [02:10] research are among the best tools [02:12] available for tracking where Israeli [02:14] society is moving in real time. As [02:17] Israel heads towards a pivotal election, [02:19] regardless of where you stand [02:20] politically, IDI is an essential [02:22] resource for making sense of what's at [02:25] stake and where the country may be [02:27] headed after the votes are counted. To [02:30] learn more, visit [02:31] elections.idi.org.il/2026 [02:38] or follow the link in the show notes. [02:42] >> Leora Avi, welcome to Call Me Back. [02:46] Thank you, Dan. [02:46] >> Hi, Dan. [02:48] >> It's great to be with you guys, both of [02:50] you joining me from Tel Aviv. Leor, I'm [02:53] going to start our conversation with the [02:55] two episodes that dramatize the morning [02:58] of October 7th. They were devastating to [03:01] watch. That's where the line between [03:05] fiction and non-fiction and the lines [03:08] between reality and memory completely [03:11] blurred. How did you go about [03:13] restructuring that day? [03:15] So, first of all, when October 7 [03:19] happened, it was a shock for all of us. [03:22] We were devastated. We didn't know what [03:25] to do in Israel. We all we didn't know [03:28] what what happened to us and how it [03:30] could happen to us. This crazy [03:33] situations. [03:34] And when AI and I uh started to write [03:38] this, the fifth season of FA, [03:41] we couldn't ignore October 7. We thought [03:44] that in the beginning when we had a plan [03:47] to write something else but but then [03:48] October 7 happened and then we decided [03:50] that we cannot do anything without [03:53] October 7. For us it's such a major [03:57] event in our life. It's a trauma that we [04:00] cannot even express to the world. We [04:03] couldn't. And then we decided that we [04:06] need to write something about it. And [04:10] we knew that it's going to be out. We [04:12] knew that everything that people will [04:13] see it in Israel and outside of Israel [04:16] and and and then how do you write [04:18] something about it when it's still very [04:19] fresh? We started to write the show [04:22] immediately after October 7. So and the [04:26] show happening 3 years after October 7 [04:28] these days. So we had to imagine what [04:30] will happen after October 7. And this is [04:33] how we started to write. And we knew [04:36] that we have a responsibility [04:39] to the world and to to show the story [04:42] that we all had, you know, we all we all [04:45] got affected by. It wasn't easy because [04:48] how you tell a story of such a big [04:51] event, such a huge event for the [04:53] Israelis, for the Jewish nation. How do [04:55] you tell this story? And we decided to [04:57] tell the story through the characters [04:59] that everybody knows and through their [05:01] emotional journey what happened to them [05:05] on those days in this day where they [05:08] were what happened to them. So for us it [05:11] was much easier [05:13] uh and I think to the audience as well [05:15] to understand what happened in October 7 [05:18] because they went through with Don that [05:20] they know for so long with Ellie that [05:21] they know for 10 years already. All the [05:23] viewers all the people who watch FA they [05:27] all know those characters very very [05:29] well. So if you put those character in [05:31] October 7 they will understand much [05:34] better what happened to all of us in [05:36] Israel in this day. [05:38] >> And Leor just to kind of set the context [05:41] and I I just want to spend a very quick [05:43] moment on this. You learned about [05:45] October 7th obviously from the images [05:47] but also your sister was living on a [05:50] kibbutz in the south right in the Gaza [05:52] envelope and and she had reached out to [05:54] you. [05:54] >> Yeah. She went to the just for the for [05:56] the the the weekend to this kibbutz [05:59] areas kibbutz areas. I was in Romania [06:01] when October 7 happened. [06:03] >> Right. [06:03] >> And and I and I woke up with a phone [06:06] call of my sister saying that there is [06:08] an attack and she needs me to come and [06:10] save her and she's with knives inside [06:12] the shelter. her and I didn't understand [06:13] what she's talking about. It was it was [06:16] crazy for me to wake up in this in with [06:18] this call and she said immediately just [06:20] watch what happening in the news and and [06:22] then I I opened and I opened TV and and [06:24] and and what we saw was devastating. So [06:28] October October 7 was a shock for me. It [06:31] was because I didn't I didn't have the [06:32] ability to go and save my sister as [06:34] well. She's okay. She live she she [06:36] managed to run away with her sons. But [06:39] for me it was the hardest thing to [06:41] understand that I cannot do anything [06:43] until I went back day after. [06:46] >> Okay. Avi war films as I mentioned in [06:49] the introduction and TV series like you [06:51] know Band of Brothers and other shows [06:53] typically come out years and years [06:56] sometimes decades after the wars ended. [07:00] October 7th is still a living trauma for [07:03] Israelis. How do you dramatize something [07:05] that [07:07] for many of your viewers has not yet [07:10] become history? It's it's something [07:12] that's they're either actually living [07:15] while you're while you're in the writer [07:16] room writing this or or there's just [07:19] still PTSD [07:21] um by the time the show comes out. So [07:24] this is part of the conversation that we [07:25] were having part of the dilemma because [07:28] we knew at the end of the day that many [07:30] people are still there in the trauma not [07:32] even in the post trauma but inside the [07:34] trauma living it breathing it and how [07:37] can you deal with stuff like that? How [07:39] can you deal with u knowing that you [07:42] know 1,200 [07:44] families lost their son or daughter or [07:47] relative or whatever 251 people were [07:51] taken to to Gaza kidnapped by kamas and [07:55] while we were starting to write the [07:57] fifth season they were still there [07:59] meaning the hostages most of them were [08:01] still there and then what do you do [08:04] exactly like what can you show what can [08:07] you write about what you cannot Not [08:09] maybe this is something too much of you [08:12] know touching not even the the scar it's [08:15] an open wound. So how can you touch this [08:18] open wound without really damaging it [08:21] damaging the body or the soul of the [08:24] people that suffer too much and the [08:25] people that were living in Israel and [08:27] for us you know it's a nation and a [08:29] trauma it's a nation not even in a post [08:31] trauma it's still there we're breathing [08:35] it we're living it. I guess that each [08:36] and every one of us is carrying some [08:39] kind of memory from October 7th. And we [08:42] knew that while we are going to do [08:45] something, two episodes about October 7, [08:48] it's going to raise the trauma again. [08:50] It's going to show the trauma not only [08:53] to people all around the world, but to [08:55] people that were really living and [08:57] breathing the trauma. Leor, what was the [08:59] hardest decision you guys had to make [09:01] about what to show and what not to show? [09:04] trying to be a fly on the wall in the [09:05] writer room when you guys are thinking [09:06] this through like oo that's that's going [09:08] too far or that's too close to the bone [09:11] we can't do that or it wasn't just in [09:13] the writer's room it's also was on set [09:16] uh because while we were shooting [09:19] those devastating scenes [09:23] so let's let's let's let's take this as [09:25] an example there was a rape terrorist [09:28] raped Israeli women's in the party [09:30] outside of the party in the kibbuti [09:31] Okay. [09:33] How much do you do you do you allow [09:36] yourself to to show? So we decided to do [09:40] it in very delicate way. If you can say [09:44] that about what you've seen there, but [09:46] you see blood under skirts. [09:49] You see when when the terrorists take [09:51] Ellie's wife to the room, you don't see [09:54] that. [09:55] >> Well, you see you see him take her to [09:57] the room, but you don't see what he does [09:58] to her in the room. [09:59] >> Exactly. But you know, but you know, you [10:01] know what he does in the room [10:02] >> exactly. You know exactly what's going [10:04] to happen there. But on the other way, [10:06] there was two scenes that that was there [10:09] were very hard scenes that every Israeli [10:11] knows about. One, it was the container [10:14] that people in the party were hiding in [10:17] a container. [10:18] >> Yeah. Like a big dumpster. Like a big [10:20] garbage container. Yeah. And and the [10:21] kids kids who had escaped the Nova uh [10:24] festival, there's there's a scene where [10:26] they're hiding in this big container. [10:28] >> Yeah. And I'm I'm climbing there and [10:30] they're all dead. So it was like 20 30 [10:33] dead kids over there [10:36] >> and it it really happened. [10:38] >> It really happened. Meaning you you guys [10:40] were recreating something that actually [10:42] occurred. [10:43] >> Yeah. And also there was the migunit [10:45] scene. How do you say migunit? It was a [10:47] shelter like a mobile shelter. [10:49] >> Yeah. A shelter on the side of the road, [10:51] right? Where there's a bunch of the kids [10:53] from the Nova Festival hiding in there. [10:55] Uh, by the way, when I saw that scene, I [10:57] was thinking of where where uh Hersh [11:00] Goldberg Poland was taken hostage from [11:02] where Anna Shapiro was killed. That that [11:04] I've been to that actual um shelter. [11:06] That was the immediate thing I thought [11:08] of when I watched that scene. So, was [11:10] that trying to recreate those kinds of [11:11] scenes that you knew actually occurred? [11:13] >> Yeah. And you can see it also in our [11:15] faces as actors who going into this [11:18] place and going out from this place. You [11:21] can see it on our eyes that the acting [11:25] and the reality are very you don't [11:28] understand what's what's acting and [11:29] what's reality. And you can see it in [11:32] all in those two episodes. All of our [11:35] all of the team the actors were so deep [11:38] inside this situation [11:41] that I'm standing there after I did what [11:44] I did in the in the Nova Festival and [11:47] you see in my eyes that it's real. I [11:50] wasn't acting. I was really inside of [11:53] this situation like my friends uh uh who [11:56] were we were all part of this scene that [11:59] you saying that sometimes you you shoot [12:02] movies or TV shows 20 years 10 years [12:04] after it happened. For us it was so real [12:07] because it was like a year ago two years [12:10] ago and we we were living it. So as as [12:14] an actors and this is why it's so hard [12:15] and so bleeding this two episodes you [12:18] you feel that you are inside of it. [12:20] >> Yeah Aby go ahead. [12:21] >> You know the question is how graphic can [12:23] you be? How you know what's the body [12:26] count that you can show? How many dead [12:28] bodies? How many times can you repeat [12:30] that? The rape as as Leo mentioned [12:34] there's a dilemma here. It's in the [12:36] writer's room. It's in the during the [12:39] production and it's in the editing room [12:41] because usually you shoot more than you [12:44] show of course and then comes the the [12:46] discussion what should we show what [12:48] shouldn't we can we show the kids being [12:50] being shot or not and of course the [12:52] answer was no we don't need to to show [12:55] the kids being shot we don't need to [12:57] show many of the things that happen in [12:59] reality though some people that you know [13:02] their head was beheaded or some body [13:04] organs that were cut buy mashets. And by [13:07] the way, we insisted on showing a sword, [13:10] a mashet that kamasba people were [13:13] carrying with them. Why? Because we [13:15] understood through a research that we've [13:17] done for the show, each and every kamas [13:20] member that was part of the invasion [13:23] into Israel on October 7th took with [13:26] them not only an AK-47 and a hand [13:28] grenade or RPG, but also a machete, a [13:31] sword. And that brings the question of [13:34] why on earth would a terrorist with an [13:36] AK-47 invade a kibut or a town with a [13:40] huge sword on his back. And that's real. [13:42] And I have to emphasize this. Almost [13:45] each and every scene that you see in [13:46] those two episodes, seven and eight, are [13:49] taken are inspired by true events. [13:51] Starting from the the starting point in [13:54] which Ellie gets the phone call around [13:56] 3:00 a.m. and you know the Shinbet tells [13:59] him, "Get ready. we need you to come as [14:01] a kind of a what they they're calling [14:03] tequila force. [14:04] >> Tequila force was the unit that Israel [14:07] deployed to the border obviously before [14:09] they knew the scale of the of the [14:11] invasion. [14:12] >> It's an intervention it's an [14:13] intervention team. [14:15] >> Yeah. [14:15] >> For the shin. It's a kind of a SWAT team [14:17] of the Shinbet with the Yamam that was [14:20] sent early in the morning, the police on [14:23] the terror unit that are working with [14:25] the Shinbet together and they were sent [14:27] there because the Shinbet and the army [14:30] had some kind of an intelligence that [14:32] something is happen is happening on the [14:34] border. They didn't know what is [14:35] happening. So this is why they sent the [14:37] first Steve and this is why we we show [14:39] Ellie, you know, going there. Then of [14:41] course the Bedwin guy that was murdered [14:43] there. Then you have the junction. the [14:45] junction with the police and all of it [14:47] and the kibuts and each and every event [14:51] that you see in those two episodes [14:53] including the old man on the roof in the [14:56] kibut that is shooting some kamas people [14:58] it's taken from real stories that [15:01] happened there. to every one of those [15:03] details. I just want to be clear on [15:04] this. Every one of those details that [15:06] you show, you could trace to actual [15:11] incidents or events as horrific as they [15:13] are that actually occurred on October [15:15] 7th. [15:17] >> The major events, yes, you definitely [15:19] can connect them to real events that [15:21] happened on the ground. [15:22] >> Okay. And did you, and this is a [15:25] question for both of you, did you feel a [15:28] different level of responsibility [15:30] writing this season? I mean, you you've [15:32] written four seasons before [15:35] and [15:36] did you just feel like a heavier sense [15:38] of the the stakes with this episode was [15:41] going to be I mean, I I'm just I was [15:42] just looking at when season 4 So season [15:44] 4, the season prior before this one was [15:48] released in Israel on in July of 2022 [15:51] and it was released globally on Netflix [15:53] in January of 2023. So some 9 months or [15:56] something before October 7th, 2023. [15:59] So events in the region, in the Middle [16:02] East, in Israel, you know, in its among [16:05] its immediate neighbors, things are [16:06] always tense and the stakes are always, [16:08] you know, one could argue are high. But [16:10] when this season, when you got went to [16:12] work on this season, you had to know the [16:14] stakes were way higher. Did you what [16:17] what kind of sense of responsibility did [16:19] you feel when you were writing? [16:21] I feel that you know for us it was the [16:25] most important thing that we've done in [16:27] our work in our job as you know script [16:30] writers as creators as as a journalist [16:33] as whatever you know for for me at least [16:35] and I think that the agrees with me [16:37] about that you understand that this is [16:40] something way bigger than just another [16:41] TV show okay it's not like season 1 2 3 [16:45] 4 it's something else now there's a real [16:48] story a real event that when you follow [16:51] the real events, you got to be very [16:54] careful about what you do. And I felt [16:55] like I don't know that you have a kind [16:58] of a sacred mission in a way almost, you [17:01] know, a the guy in the synagogue, the [17:04] Kazan that reads the prayer. So it's [17:09] called Shalu. And I think that for for [17:12] me at least I felt that there's a [17:15] there's a mission here to tell a way [17:18] bigger story than you know just another [17:20] season of FA Leor. It was bigger than [17:23] us. The story was bigger than us. This [17:27] is something that we had to do. It [17:29] wasn't even a question. It was a a [17:32] mission for us. We knew that it will [17:35] affect people. We first of all we [17:37] thought about the people in Israel and [17:39] then we thought about people outside of [17:40] Israel. This is why there was a [17:42] disclaimer before episode 7 and 8 in [17:45] Israel. It could trigger you guys. You [17:48] don't have to watch that show. You don't [17:49] have to watch those two episodes if you [17:51] feel that it will traumatize you. So you [17:54] can skip it and go through the the [17:56] episode nine and and don't don't don't [17:59] watch it. So for us it was a huge [18:02] responsibility we felt that we have and [18:04] and the atmosphere now in the world um [18:07] much more with this atmosphere we knew [18:11] that we had to tell our truth because [18:14] you hear so many stories people trying [18:17] to to say that the October 7th wasn't [18:20] real that it it was some army things a [18:23] war no we want to show to the world this [18:27] is what happened this is in your is you [18:30] will think whatever you want to think [18:31] about it but this is what happened and [18:33] we want to put it in your face now and [18:35] then you decide if October 7 happened or [18:38] not or if it was the kamas militant [18:40] against is army or it was terrorist [18:43] against civilians. So it was a [18:46] responsibility that we really felt that [18:49] it's on our our our shoulders and this [18:51] is what we did. uh FA has a global [18:54] audience and I want to talk to you about [18:57] how you imagine this season being [18:58] received when you're working on it [19:00] around the world and specifically the [19:02] Arab world and I want I just want to [19:03] quote here so so I mentioned it in the [19:06] intro it's it's popular around the world [19:08] extremely popular around the world [19:10] especially across a range of Arab [19:12] countries in the middle of September it [19:14] was the number one show in Lebanon it [19:16] was top five in Jordan and Qatar uh it [19:20] was number five in the UAE. It was top [19:23] 10 in Kuwait. I can go on and on and on. [19:25] And there's a there's a writer for The [19:27] Atlantic magazine who wrote a piece uh [19:30] about season 5. His name is John Aziz. [19:32] Interestingly enough, he's he's has uh [19:34] roots in the West Bank. He's he's got [19:37] Palestinian family. Um, and he writes, [19:40] "For any Israeli drama, much less one [19:43] about undercover operatives apprehending [19:46] and often killing Palestinian and [19:48] Lebanese militants, to become a hit [19:50] across the Arab world is remarkable. For [19:53] it to happen in a season partially [19:55] devoted to the events of October 7th, [19:57] 2023 and their aftermath is nothing [20:01] short of astonishing. [20:04] Did you imagine [20:07] it would be received with these off [20:09] thecharts viewership numbers in the Arab [20:13] world when you were working on it? Aby, [20:16] I'll start with you. [20:18] Short answer, no. I didn't see it [20:21] coming. [20:22] I thought that we'll have and I shared [20:24] my concerns with Leo many times. I felt [20:29] that uh not too many people are going to [20:31] watch it in the Middle East and all over [20:33] the world. Why? Because you know very [20:35] much not popular meaning us Israelis and [20:39] again it's touches such a brutal wound [20:42] open still open. So I thought that you [20:44] know people wouldn't like to to see a [20:46] show like that. Uh Leor before before [20:48] you respond I just want to quote one [20:50] more time from this piece by John Aziz [20:52] which we'll link to in the show notes [20:53] which which is a really interesting [20:54] piece. He writes, "This show, this [20:57] season, will no doubt challenge some of [20:59] the Arab viewership that the show has [21:01] built up. Depicting these events in [21:03] great detail is a challenge to those who [21:05] falsely claim that the war in Gaza was [21:07] unprovoked, as well as to those who do [21:10] not believe that Hamas committed war [21:12] crimes or that October 7th when was an [21:14] Israeli false flag. So, [21:18] what do you think I mean these audiences [21:20] in the Arab world, Leor, are are seeing [21:23] when they see this season? Like, they're [21:25] clearly being driven to watch this in [21:28] big numbers. What do you think that they [21:30] they are wrestling with or they're [21:32] encountering? I've asked a friend of a [21:34] Lebanese friend of mine and I asked him [21:38] why the hell people in Lebanon watching [21:42] FA, what's the magic? And he told me two [21:46] things. First of all, the majority of [21:48] the Lebanese want peace with Israel. [21:51] The minority is very loud. The minority [21:55] is very violent. But the majority of the [21:58] Lebanese really want to have peace with [22:00] Israel like the Israelis want to have [22:02] peace with Lebanese. I think we are much [22:05] more connected than ever. And this is [22:08] one thing. The other thing he told me [22:11] that we are sharing the same enemy. Most [22:13] of the Lebanese doesn't like Hezbollah. [22:17] It doesn't like Iran and they doesn't [22:19] like the intervention that they have in [22:21] their country. So they are related. And [22:24] listen, I'm getting hundred or thousands [22:28] of messages from people in the Arab [22:29] world through my social media. [22:32] And you know what's crazy? I'm getting [22:36] I'm getting messages from people in [22:37] Lebanon that saying, "Why you didn't [22:39] show how cruel they were in October 7? [22:43] Why didn't what why didn't you show how [22:45] brutal they were and the the terrorists? [22:49] >> Wow. [22:49] >> In real life they were much more brutal. [22:52] So the Lebanese wanted that I that sent [22:55] me some messages. They said why you [22:57] didn't show that? [22:58] >> But they they were saying you held back. [23:00] >> Yeah. That we were we were too too uh um [23:04] how do you say gentle? [23:06] >> Yeah. Sanitized. Too sanitized. [23:08] >> Yeah. So for us and I think it's bigger [23:12] than that D then it's I think the [23:14] majority of the people in the world want [23:17] to have peace they want to live in quiet [23:19] they don't want to have wars like us we [23:22] don't want to have wars but there is a [23:24] minor loud minority on social media and [23:26] loud minority all over the world who's [23:30] who's taking control of the conversation [23:33] instead of the majority of the people of [23:35] the world that they are very silenced [23:37] now and they're not saying I think [23:39] >> I want to add one more reason why is it [23:41] so popular and this is something very [23:43] simple and uh you know I might sound not [23:47] modest enough [23:49] but it's a good show. It's a good TV [23:51] show and I think that at the end of the [23:53] day because the drama was built in a [23:55] very specific way especially about those [23:57] two episodes makes it even more [24:00] interesting to watch even if you live in [24:02] Qatar or Lebanon or Jordan or wherever. [24:06] We'll be back with Leora Na'vi right [24:08] after this message. [24:11] Hi, it's Dan Senor. Israel is heading [24:14] into one of its most consequential [24:16] elections and this time the whole world [24:19] is watching closely. Hot takes and daily [24:22] noise are pretty much guaranteed to [24:24] populate your media diet. But as with [24:26] any election, there's a deeper story [24:28] about identity, religion, democracy, and [24:32] what kind of country Israelis want to [24:34] live in. That's why Ark Media launched [24:37] Israel Votes, a special initiative [24:39] across Call Me Back, For Heaven's Sake, [24:42] and Ark News Daily. You'll hear from the [24:44] leading candidates shaping the race, [24:46] along with analysis and reporting from [24:49] two of Israel's leading political [24:50] analysts, Ark Media contributors [24:53] Nadavael and Amit Sego. Join us for [24:56] Israel Votes, your front row seat to the [24:59] election that could define Israel's [25:01] future. Go to arcmedia.org. org/votes [25:06] to watch and listen. See you there. [25:11] And we're back with Leor Raz and Aia [25:14] Sakarov. One aspect or one consistent [25:18] approach of of one of FA's signatures [25:21] throughout the first four seasons has [25:23] always been showing h the humanity on [25:26] both sides of the conflict. So even the [25:28] the antagonists in previous seasons who [25:32] you know we learn to hate [25:35] there there are certain moments where [25:36] you kind of you you like pull this trick [25:39] on your on your audience on your viewers [25:41] where you're forced to to understand the [25:43] human dilemmas the personal [25:45] relationships [25:46] the the the contradictions if you will [25:49] in some of the the most barbaric [25:52] characters in the previous seasons on [25:55] the Palestinian side. [25:58] You don't do that so much in this [26:00] season. Did October 7th make that [26:03] instinct harder to maintain? [26:06] >> I guess it didn't. I guess that for us [26:08] it was challenging in another way in a [26:11] different way because again this is one [26:13] of the most significant things about [26:15] father you know showing the conflict [26:18] from both sides. At the end of the day, [26:19] after October 7th, we understood that [26:21] you cannot go deep into the heart of a [26:24] Nbba murderer terrorists that was part [26:27] of the of this terrible massacre that [26:30] took place on October 7th. And you know, [26:32] understanding his reasons and [26:34] motivation, it's not about that. But [26:36] what we did is a kind of another trick. [26:38] meaning during the plot of uh all the [26:42] other nine episodes while we do follow [26:46] you know the other side which are [26:49] Europeans European white Europeans [26:53] that are being kind of tricked or [26:56] dragged by Kamas's people by Kamas's [26:59] propaganda [27:00] and are joining Kamas in their terrorist [27:03] activities and we were showing them and [27:05] we did deep dive into their hearts and [27:07] their conflicts [27:08] through the of course the character of [27:10] an and Melody Laur the the French very [27:15] famous actress from Glorious Bastards [27:19] and over there we did show what they're [27:22] facing and the dilemmas and all the [27:24] questions that they're dealing with. Uh, [27:26] I want to ask you about that because I'm [27:29] glad you brought it up because this is a [27:31] big theme of this season which which [27:34] didn't exist in in previous seasons or [27:36] at least not to the same extent [27:37] certainly which [27:40] this chorus of [27:43] sympathizers [27:44] for Hamas and sympathizers for for [27:49] October 7th in some way, meaning for the [27:52] massacre that it was some kind of [27:54] pursuit of Palestinian liberation. [27:56] justified Palestinian, you know, [27:59] response to to Israel's aggression, [28:02] quote unquote, occupation, whatever. [28:04] That there's this whole echo chamber [28:06] throughout the West, largely in Europe, [28:08] but not only Europe. We see these people [28:10] on American college campuses. We see [28:12] them throughout, you know, protesting, [28:14] you know, throughout capitals throughout [28:15] Europe. And this is this is a big theme. [28:19] And this this Melanie Lauron who plays [28:21] an as you said is is a is a and and the [28:24] and the people around her in in France [28:26] and Marseilles are are an important part [28:28] of the story in season 5. What I was [28:30] most struck by avi reminded this as you [28:34] bring it up was [28:37] I didn't see it coming to the extent [28:40] that it became a big theme of our story [28:43] after October 7th. years later, we're [28:45] sitting there scratching our heads, [28:46] looking around being like, "What is [28:48] going on?" Like, how is are these huge [28:51] swats of Western society that have no [28:54] connection, are not from the Arab Muslim [28:56] world, how are they so invested in the [28:58] Hamas cause? And you guys wrote that in [29:02] as a big part of the story. And as you, [29:04] as Leor said earlier, you started [29:06] writing this soon after October 7th. Did [29:08] you did you guys anticipate that this [29:11] would be a big theme of our world of our [29:13] real world not our fictionalized world [29:15] of our real world after October 7th? [29:17] Like how did that become part of the [29:19] story for you guys? [29:20] >> I I will remind you that two days after [29:22] October 7, the demonstrations against [29:24] Israel started 2 days after October 7, [29:28] the demonstrations against Israel in the [29:29] universities and the US started. It's [29:32] pure anti-semitism. [29:34] Pure anti-semitism. It's I cannot [29:36] explain it in a different way because I [29:40] heard someone who says that we are in a [29:43] war for the last 20 years but we didn't [29:45] participate in this war. We didn't know [29:46] that we are in a war that in the last 20 [29:49] years there are some movements countries [29:51] governments who's paying to universities [29:55] uh uh buying buying properties uh buying [29:58] uh uh governments buying people buying [30:01] politicians uh with their money and they [30:05] are trying to control the narrative and [30:07] they are controlling the narrative now [30:10] in this war that we didn't know that [30:12] happening in the last 20 years and now [30:15] we [30:16] the outcome of those 20 years of funding [30:19] all those places that now controlling [30:21] the narrative that the kamas the [30:23] terrorists are the heroes and for us [30:26] it's I remember all of us all the [30:28] Israelis 2 days after October 7 we were [30:30] griefing we were counting the bodies [30:33] people start to demonstrate against [30:35] Israel saying that we are we are [30:37] genociding for me it's it's pure [30:39] anti-semitism I don't have any any words [30:41] and it still continues you know it still [30:44] continues Dan And you see that not only [30:46] the c colleges and campuses, you see it [30:48] all over the place. You see it in [30:49] Hollywood. I'm sorry to say that. I [30:51] mean, but there are some even Jewish [30:55] actors that are joining the the [30:57] so-called party. Why? Maybe it's cool to [31:00] be anti-Israel. Maybe it's cool to be [31:03] pro- kamas and to call it, no, I'm pro [31:05] Palestine, but it's not pro Palestine. [31:07] It's pretty obvious that you support [31:09] Hamas. So, what's behind this? I cannot [31:12] really understand. Maybe this is a kind [31:15] of an attempt to be popular to to get [31:18] more, you know, people following you on [31:20] the social networks. I don't know. [31:22] Actually, I don't care anymore. I mean, [31:25] we don't care anymore because we had [31:26] enough of those sometimes young, [31:29] sometimes less young people that are not [31:31] really educated, do not really [31:32] understand the picture. At the end of [31:34] the day, that was our truth. And yes, we [31:38] understood that in Europe there are some [31:40] organizations that are trying to provoke [31:42] young people to join them and to support [31:44] their activities against Israel. So this [31:47] is why we showed, you know, those [31:49] Europeans that have been recruited to [31:53] Hamas. And we even had a a special cameo [31:58] uh guest on episode five if I'm not [32:01] wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I [32:03] don't know how many people here know [32:05] that [32:06] >> he's he's talking about me. [32:08] >> That Dan Senor, the host of Call Me [32:11] Back, did call Us Back and was a cameo [32:14] as a kamas supporter on episode 5 of [32:18] season 5. [32:19] >> I hear that episode 5 is the highest [32:21] downloaded uh episode of the season. So, [32:24] uh I amum I'm not saying there's a [32:25] connection [32:26] >> because then you look like you you [32:28] really look like a European student in a [32:30] way. I know. I know. Cuz I'm clean [32:32] shaven. You guys didn't give me enough [32:34] notice to grow to grow stubble for that [32:36] filming. Uh let me ask you about um the [32:40] cast. So when did you guys start [32:41] shooting this season? [32:43] >> Nine months ago. 10 months ago. [32:46] >> Okay. So you're in the middle of still [32:48] this, you know, where where the issue of [32:51] the war and Israel's response to the war [32:53] is politically charged all over the [32:55] place. And you bring in a lot of actors [32:58] who are not from Israel. You mentioned [32:59] Melanie Lauron, who's who's not [33:01] certainly not from Israel. This may have [33:03] even been her first trip to Israel. I [33:04] don't know, you guys could tell me. So, [33:05] you you're bringing in all these people. [33:06] Obviously, you have a lot of Arab actors [33:09] in the in this season. So, you're [33:12] filming this [33:14] while Israel is in the middle. Again, it [33:16] comes I I keep coming back to this [33:18] question about doing all this while [33:20] events are unfolding in real time, while [33:22] tensions are so charged, so high. You [33:26] know, I think Israelis feel like the [33:28] whole world is against them. And here [33:29] you are literally bringing non-Israelis [33:32] into Israel for a long stretch of time [33:36] to participate in this film while the [33:39] war is going on. You're filming while [33:41] the war is going on. Can What was that [33:45] like? What was the dynamic like with [33:46] this cast, particularly with the with [33:48] the non-Jews in the in the cast? [33:51] >> So, I'll talk about Melanie. Melanie, we [33:54] played together in two different movies [33:56] before in Six Underground and and [33:58] Operation Finale. And we became very [34:00] good friends. And after I told her that [34:04] we have a role for French uh uh uh [34:07] character, she shouted at me why she's [34:09] not doing it. [34:11] >> Shouted you meaning like like why aren't [34:12] you thinking about me for this role? [34:14] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She was how crazy you [34:16] are that you're not offering me this [34:18] job, this this character. I want to be [34:20] part of FA. And I and I talked to Avi [34:23] and immediately we said yes and and we [34:25] got her. But while we were shooting [34:27] there were the war with Iran started. So [34:29] Israel was bombed with heavy missiles [34:32] while they were here. Those actors [34:35] Khakeim he came from France. Algerian [34:38] guy with a Muslim religion. And Melanie [34:41] who came to Israel. She was in Israel [34:44] like once I think uh for one day for 24 [34:47] hours recording something. and she came [34:49] here and immediately she fell in love in [34:52] Israel. She really fell in love in [34:54] Israel. Um while the war started, she [34:58] she the the the she called me and she [35:01] said, "I don't have shelter in my home [35:03] and I have a shelter in my home." I [35:05] mean, she didn't have a shelter in the [35:06] home she was staying in while when she [35:08] was in Yeah. When she was in Israel. [35:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. While we were [35:11] filming and I said, "Come over. Let's [35:13] you come be our guest. Live with us." [35:15] And she lived with us the whole the [35:17] whole time with my family, with my kids, [35:20] with my wife, with my dog, with my cat. [35:22] We were all together like h big happy [35:24] family. And after the war ended, she [35:26] didn't want to leave the house. She [35:28] wanted to stay with us. And she stayed. [35:31] And after we finished, we finished [35:33] shooting, she came back to Israel again [35:36] and again. She wanted to be part, she [35:38] felt in love in Israel. Also, Khakeim [35:41] Khakeim was I remember every Friday [35:44] night he was show he was sending me [35:46] pictures all of us sending pictures to [35:47] all of us that he's doing a kadouch uh [35:50] with different families in Israel happy [35:54] um he wanted to to buy a house here. It [35:56] was really the when when you feel it [35:58] when you know Israelis and when you know [36:01] what's happening here and you when you [36:02] feel the atmosphere the real atmosphere [36:04] not the thing that you telling that [36:05] people see from outside or think about [36:07] about us from the outside you understand [36:09] it Israel it's an amazing place to live [36:13] and and both of them and all of them [36:15] actually felt the same way um we're [36:18] constantly hearing stories about how [36:21] Israel Israeli creative artists Israeli [36:25] stories tellers are being, you know, [36:28] Israeli academics, Israeli scientists [36:31] are being isolated, they're being [36:33] cancelled, they're being boycotted. [36:36] Obviously, again, we see a lot of this [36:38] in in the Hollywood scene, as you [36:40] alluded to before, Avi. [36:42] Were you worried when you were making [36:44] this that there's no way this season, [36:49] particularly the way you portray [36:51] episodes seven and 8, will survive [36:54] efforts to cancel it once it goes on the [36:57] global stage? You know, pretty soon [37:00] we got the call from Netflix [37:04] that they were saying, "We're going to [37:06] to air it. We're going to show it." [37:09] >> Meaning pretty soon after you had [37:11] created it for the Israeli audience for [37:13] Yes. [37:14] >> So after we finished the writing and [37:16] then we were about to start shooting, it [37:18] was pretty clear to us that Netflix is [37:21] behind us and us supporting FA fifth [37:23] season. So I think that there was no [37:27] real question mark about you know is the [37:31] international audience going to watch it [37:33] or not. For us, it was known, it was [37:37] clear, yes, Netflix is going to air it. [37:40] And it it's great, you know, and since [37:44] then, it's all over the world. 192 [37:47] countries, if I'm not wrong, [37:50] reached the the the top 10 in the US, [37:54] including all the other streamers, uh, [37:56] according to one of the websites, [37:59] according to Variety, actually. So you [38:03] know having everything that you said [38:08] fa fifth season enjoying lots of [38:11] audience many people watching it it's a [38:14] kind of a miracle because this is the [38:16] thing that we didn't see we knew that [38:18] it's going to be aired but we didn't [38:20] know how popular is it going to be I [38:23] mean all the time that you know that [38:24] it's about to be aired on Netflix you [38:27] don't know how many people are going to [38:29] watch it with everything that camp in [38:32] Gaza and all the criticism against the [38:35] the against Israel against Israeli [38:37] government and at the end of the day [38:39] this is like a huge surprise for us and [38:43] it's a great surprise but you call it a [38:45] miracle. It was also a big risk. Like, [38:47] did you guys ever have a conversation [38:49] saying, [38:51] "We're producing something here that [38:54] could provoke huge backlash [38:57] and completely undermine the story we're [39:00] trying to tell." And maybe we should [39:01] rein it in or maybe we should tone it [39:03] down. Or [39:03] >> I will stop you. I will stop you for a [39:05] second. Listen. [39:06] >> All right. [39:07] >> We're not scared, Jav. We're not scared. [39:10] We don't play the the these games of [39:13] cancelling, not cancelling. It's [39:15] ridiculous. You know, we're doing our [39:17] things. We are artists. We're doing our [39:19] shows. We're doing our our our art. We [39:22] we bringing to the world. We're bringing [39:24] stories. We want to we want people to [39:26] feel we want people to get emotions from [39:29] what we're writing and what we're doing. [39:31] That's it. And the boycotting thing that [39:34] you're talking about, it's it's [39:36] ridiculous because how how art people [39:39] artistic society [39:41] want to boycott other artists because of [39:45] their religion or the the place that [39:46] they are coming. It's so you are not an [39:49] artist if you boycott an a different [39:51] artist because of of their uh religion. [39:54] This is art. art. It's about to be open [39:57] to to be uh uh dem democratic to [40:00] understand many other this is why we we [40:03] we see other different shows different [40:06] movies from all over the world. I'm not [40:07] judging anyone by his opinions by his [40:10] religion. I'm I'm I'm judging them by by [40:13] their good story, good actors or not. [40:15] And that's it. By the way, I think that [40:19] we [40:21] expected even more of the calls for [40:24] boycotting FA. I mean, we had it on the [40:27] second season from the BDS movement that [40:29] call to boycott FA, not to air it and [40:31] not to watch it. And of course, it [40:33] helped us in the Arab world. I think [40:35] this is one of the reasons it became so [40:37] popular. We expected some voices saying [40:40] bad stuff about FA calling to stop [40:43] airing, calling to stop watch it and in [40:46] a way it was kind of surprising that we [40:48] didn't hear many voices like that. So we [40:51] have a kind of a a small WhatsApp group [40:55] for FA and then at some point I noticed [40:58] that [41:00] it's a kind of a website that is [41:03] affiliated withaha [41:05] called in on its website to boycott FA [41:10] because it serves the the Zionist entity [41:12] and the Zionist enemy and I sent it to [41:15] everyone on the team and I said thank [41:16] God we have someone calling to boycott [41:19] us. Leo and I truly believe that in good [41:23] content, you'll have good results. [41:26] Meaning that if you bring on even a [41:29] topic that is [41:32] controversial or under discussion or not [41:36] politically correct to to follow, if [41:39] it's good, then people would follow. [41:41] Then people would watch it. And I think [41:44] that this is what stands in our belief [41:46] and in even our in our business model. [41:48] This is what we do. We bring stories [41:51] that, you know, for some clients, let's [41:54] call them that way, are not that [41:57] convenient with those kinds of [41:58] materials. But at the end of the day, we [42:00] think that they're great stories and we [42:02] believe in good stories. [42:04] >> There will be eventually dozens, perhaps [42:07] hundreds of films and television shows [42:09] about October 7th in the years to come, [42:12] decades to come. Leor, what do you worry [42:15] future dramatizations might actually get [42:18] wrong about how the story of October 7th [42:21] is told? Listen, there are so many [42:24] angles to this story. [42:26] So many people, [42:29] so many heroes, so many victims, so many [42:32] great stories, so many bad stories, so [42:35] many probably we're going to hear or or [42:37] we will see different perspective of the [42:40] the same day for so many from so many [42:43] angles. I don't worried about anything. [42:47] I just want people to see th those [42:50] stories because in every one of us, [42:54] every one of us know someone who had [42:57] this crazy story that day. And for us to [43:01] see it, [43:04] if it's a good one, we watch it. And as [43:06] Avi said, if it's a good story, it's a [43:09] good movie, everybody in the world will [43:11] watch it as well. I believe in art. I [43:14] believe in good faith. I believe in in [43:16] artists and I believe that if someone [43:19] want to to tell a story and is doing it [43:21] in a good way, in a professional way and [43:24] in a in a emotional way, we all want to [43:27] watch it. And if it's a bad one, nobody [43:28] will watch it. I I want to say here's [43:30] something. At the beginning of this [43:32] conversation, I mentioned, you know, [43:33] that all almost everything that you see [43:36] on episodes seven and eight is based on [43:38] true events. Okay? So even when you show [43:41] a a team of soldiers of special forces [43:44] from the Shinbet and from the Imam [43:46] fighting over there on defense, it's [43:48] based on a real event that happened [43:50] there that at 629 there were around 30 [43:53] special forces people that was sent by [43:55] the Shinbet and the Amam in order to to [43:58] look what is happening on the ground. It [44:01] it wasn't that they was sent in order to [44:03] to block Hamas invasion with you know [44:05] thousands of terrorists. No, they was [44:07] just trying to understand what the hell [44:10] was going on over there in the south. [44:12] But the bottom line is, guys, look, I [44:16] think that there's a consensus in Israel [44:18] about the results about the the [44:20] catastrophic results of this day with [44:23] 1,200 people that were murdered and 20 [44:26] 251 people that were taken as hostages. [44:29] Just think for one second what would [44:32] have happened if it took place in the [44:35] US. What would happen to the US if [44:37] 42,000 people would have been murdered [44:40] in one single day and 8,000 would have [44:45] been taken as hostages to an enemy [44:48] state. So in Pearl Harbor, 2,43 [44:52] people were killed during the Japanese [44:56] attack over Pearl Harbor and the US [44:59] started a world war because of that and [45:01] bombed Japan with two nuke two nuclear [45:04] weapon, two nuclear bombs. So at the end [45:07] of the day when you remember that maybe [45:09] then you you will start to understand [45:12] Israel's mentality and what happened to [45:14] Israel following October 7th. Okay, [45:16] gentlemen, before we wrap, [45:19] just in closing, is there any anything [45:22] else you would hope that our audience [45:26] would have in mind as they watch season [45:29] five of Fa? Leor, I'll start with you. [45:31] >> Yeah, just uh just for them to to start [45:34] ask questions and not be determined in [45:38] their point of view. I'm talking about [45:40] the the people who who [45:44] hates us with no reason. So, please just [45:47] ask questions. Ask what happened there? [45:50] Why did they do that? Why they act in [45:53] the way they acted? Uh and why Israel [45:56] retaliated after October 7. Just ask [45:59] those questions. For us, this is the [46:01] best thing if if it will happen that [46:03] people will ask questions [46:05] >> rather than coming to Yeah. sweeping [46:07] conclusions. [46:08] >> Yeah. [46:09] Uh, Avi, [46:11] you can say that I was I was it was [46:13] right and that's it. You don't have [46:14] anything to say, Avi. It's okay. [46:17] >> Well, I guess that Leo was wrong. Uh, [46:19] no, I'm kidding. You know, my my hope is [46:23] that other than following the the show [46:26] and understanding better what Israel [46:27] went through, people would like the show [46:29] because of the TV quality, because of [46:32] the drama that we created. And at the [46:33] end of the day, it's a drama. It's [46:35] fiction. And I'm sorry to say that, but [46:38] in reality, it was way, way worse. [46:41] >> Wow. Okay, Leor Avi, thank you for doing [46:45] this. And uh yeah, and um we hope our uh [46:51] listeners and viewers who haven't [46:52] watched season 5 yet, I thought I will [46:54] watch it. And for those who have watched [46:56] it, just watch episode 5 again. You [46:59] don't have to watch the whole season [47:00] again. Uh, I've got a complaint to make [47:02] to the creators, which I won't do now, [47:03] which I had one or two lines that were [47:05] cut out. I don't know why that happened. [47:07] I I practiced, I studied, rehearsed. [47:09] >> Your audio accent was amazing. [47:12] >> Amazing. [47:13] >> Le, did we kill his character at the end [47:16] of season? [47:16] >> No, no, no, no. My character wasn't [47:18] killed. [47:19] >> Oh, okay. I think we have hope. [47:21] >> No, no, no. I have hope for season six. [47:23] No, no, no, no. [47:24] >> Let's see how this podcast will end and [47:26] then we'll decide if it end. [47:28] >> We'll make a decision. This is how [47:29] decisions in the writer room are are are [47:32] made. It's all based on on personal [47:34] vendetta. Uh, all right, gentlemen. [47:36] Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. [47:37] >> Thank you very much. [47:38] >> Take care. Bye-bye. [47:48] >> I'm Deborah Parardis, the host of Ark [47:50] News Daily. What's happening in Israel [47:53] and the Jewish world right now matters. [47:55] But it can be hard to keep up, let alone [47:58] make sense of it all. And that's why we [48:00] started Ark News Daily. Every weekday [48:03] morning, I walk you through the most [48:04] important news, give you the context you [48:07] need, and let you know what to look out [48:09] for next. I don't try to convince you of [48:11] anything, and I don't want to waste your [48:13] time. So, on most days, I'll be in your [48:15] ears for about 10 minutes or less. then [48:18] you can move on with your day, hopefully [48:20] feeling a little smarter than before. [48:23] Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts [48:26] or follow the link in the show notes. I [48:28] hope to see you tomorrow. [48:31] If Call Me Back is where you come for [48:32] honest conversations about Israel and [48:34] the Jewish world, please hit subscribe [48:37] and also share it with a friend. And if [48:39] you missed our last episode, it's worth [48:41] going back for. See you next time.
