Transcript [00:12] Welcome everyone. Alan Lavine here, CEO [00:14] of Hosbrow Fellowships. Thanks for [00:16] everyone who is joining and who's [00:18] listening. And thanks so much to Max [00:19] Weisman. Max is a Husb fellow, a senior [00:22] at Chapman University in Orange County, [00:25] California. And Max, how are you? [00:27] >> I'm doing well, Alan. First off, thank [00:28] you for having me. I I appreciate it and [00:31] it's I know we're going to have a [00:33] meaningful conversation today. [00:34] >> Yes. Thanks so much for having it with [00:36] me. We're recording this during Sukkot, [00:39] the 1st of October, the 30th se of [00:42] September of 2026 [00:45] and a week away from the 3rd anniversary [00:48] of October 7th. And so I know that's [00:51] October 7th is kind of on a lot of [00:52] people's minds and I wanted to have this [00:57] conversation with you Max just to just [01:00] get it from a student's perspective and [01:01] and I think I want to just start we'll [01:03] get to how we're going to commemorate it [01:05] on campus a little later and and we'll [01:07] get to a lot of things but I I want to [01:09] ask you where you were on October 7th. I [01:11] know you you're a senior now, so you [01:13] were on campus and just walk me through [01:15] what it was like to go through it as a [01:18] Jewish pro-Israel college student. [01:20] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was a [01:22] freshman starting my college journey. I [01:26] was super excited going into the school [01:28] year and about 6 weeks into the school [01:30] year, it's October 7th, I'm in my dorm [01:33] room. My dad starts calling me at 6:00 [01:36] in the morning. I have no idea, you [01:39] know, what what's going on. And he [01:40] normally doesn't call me that early, [01:41] right? We have family in Israel. I I [01:43] knew that, you know, just with with, you [01:47] know, our family history and whatnot, [01:49] right? And he's like, "Max, there's been [01:51] an attack on Israel. Your cousins have [01:53] been deployed. We don't know what it is [01:55] yet." You know, I mean, there was still [01:58] so much commotion happening in Israel, [02:01] even given the time difference that, you [02:04] know, after being on the Husbra [02:05] fellowship and talking to IDF soldiers, [02:08] they didn't even quite know what was [02:10] happening yet until well into, you know, [02:13] 24 hours, right? And learning [02:18] about the news, I was I mean, in in my [02:21] dorm bed, I was I was I was in shock. I [02:24] really didn't know how to feel. I didn't [02:26] know what to think. I mean, it it became [02:29] real when I was on Twitter and you're [02:33] seeing all of these posts of of Hamas [02:38] terrorists putting these videos online [02:42] of massacring the Jewish people, the [02:45] Israeli people. Even talking about it [02:47] now, it it is one of the most emotional [02:49] topics for me and and I get chills every [02:51] time I hear October 7th. that will be [02:55] one of the most [02:58] I I don't I don't even know how how to [03:00] articulate it, but it's one of the most [03:02] heavy uh feelings that I've ever gone [03:05] through. I mean, October 7th, like for [03:07] the rest of my life, October 7th, like [03:08] that is what I will now associate [03:10] October 7th with was the second national [03:13] massacre of second largest massacre, [03:16] excuse me, of the national identity of [03:18] the Jewish people in Israel after the [03:20] Holocaust. [03:20] >> I think you're quite right about that. I [03:22] mean, I can't, you know, I think I [03:24] someone asked me about October 7th in [03:27] kind of a mundane sense the other day. I [03:29] think it was my kid's doctor's office. [03:31] How's October 7th for for the next [03:33] appointment? You know, and I said, [03:34] "Wait, what? October se?" You know, that [03:36] that that date means something now, [03:38] >> right? [03:39] >> And, you know, I think you're you're [03:41] quite right about that. It's a bit like [03:43] those who had their birthday on 911 on [03:45] September 11th. You know, it's it's it's [03:47] not just any other day. [03:49] >> Exactly. [03:49] >> Yeah. I think it's very much our our [03:51] responsibility to make sure it's [03:53] remembered and and treated with the the [03:55] weight that it deserves. Um, and you [03:59] know, with that, but you know, before we [04:01] get into that though, I think I do want [04:04] to ask you about your experience that [04:06] day. You you mentioned your your [04:08] experience, but how did your campus [04:10] react? [04:11] >> The campus, we had two very different [04:13] reactions. So once I got out of bed, I [04:16] left my dorm room and engaged in in my [04:19] classes and whatnot and was walking on [04:21] campus. There was a very clear divide, [04:25] if you will. You had Jewish students, [04:28] you had Israeli students that were [04:30] distraught that were crying the whole [04:32] day. I don't know how they had the [04:33] strength to go through the day, but [04:35] that's a testament to the Jewish people [04:37] and to the and to the character of the [04:39] Jewish people is that no matter what, we [04:41] we will fight and we'll get through it [04:42] and we're strong. And so being on campus [04:45] and seeing the the Jewish students, the [04:48] Israeli students in in in such, you [04:51] know, extreme sadness was was really sad [04:56] for me because for me, I don't I never [04:58] really had a significant tie to Israel [05:00] and so I'd never been to Israel. I knew [05:02] I had Israeli family, but I didn't feel [05:04] it the same way that is that my Israeli [05:07] friends did. And so that was the one [05:08] half of it. And then you have the second [05:10] half of it where already there were [05:14] students protesting Israel, the Israeli [05:17] government, the Jewish people already [05:19] taking place on the on the lawns, on the [05:23] quads, whatever it may be on campus [05:26] protesting. And the one of the first [05:28] thoughts I had was that this isn't [05:30] organic. [05:32] the fact that you have, you know, within [05:34] 24 hours the second largest massacre of [05:37] the Jewish people happen and almost [05:39] immediately within the day, you have [05:42] people protesting against the Israeli [05:44] government before there was any sort of [05:46] action taken on [05:48] >> by the Israeli government. And so that [05:50] was the two different reactions you had [05:52] on campus, [05:53] >> right? uh which which like I mentioned [05:56] one of the first thoughts I had was this [05:59] movement whatever is about to happen [06:01] whatever the Jewish people are about to [06:03] go through whatever the Israeli people [06:05] are about to go through what we're going [06:07] to face is not an organic movement [06:09] >> right I think you're you're quite right [06:10] about that I've wondered about that [06:12] quite a bit as well you know to to what [06:15] extent did the protest movements that we [06:19] have seen here in North America [06:22] um and the people behind those protests, [06:25] whether students for justice in [06:26] Palestine, uh with groups like within [06:29] our lifetime, [06:30] um groups of that nature, [06:34] uh to what extent did they know October [06:36] 7th was coming? It's very sort of it's [06:39] very suspect that Hamas launches this [06:43] massacre on a weekend, too, on a [06:45] Saturday morning [06:48] and these the protesters are ready to go [06:50] on October 8th. is it is [06:54] >> strange, you know, and um you know, I [06:57] would I'm sure um you know, don't get me [07:00] wrong, I'm sure they didn't know all the [07:02] details. I know, you know, Kamas was [07:04] quite secretive, right, in the leadup to [07:06] it and so forth, but [07:07] >> right, [07:08] >> it wouldn't be outside of the realm of [07:09] possibility that maybe they were told, [07:12] "Be ready early October. Something is [07:15] happening and be ready, right?" It's um [07:19] >> it's definitely something worth [07:21] exploring and investigating um [07:23] >> right [07:24] >> you know soon cuz [07:26] >> right [07:27] >> there are people that are in cahoots [07:29] with terrorists running around here on [07:31] the streets of of America um I think [07:33] that's something that the American [07:35] people and our government should know [07:36] about. [07:37] >> Right. Absolutely. And that that's a [07:38] whole other conversation uh as well. And [07:40] and going going back to your point [07:43] about, you know, what the experience was [07:45] like, you know, for me, you know, before [07:48] October 7th, I was I was Jewish. I was [07:51] proud of my identity. [07:53] And then overnight, it almost became a [07:56] calculation. I had to figure out, do I [08:00] continue to wear my magenda beside my [08:02] shirt still? Do I speak up in class to a [08:06] teacher that I know is not supportive of [08:09] the Israeli government to say the least [08:11] and may have bias against me for being a [08:13] Jewish student? You know, do I skip [08:16] Shabbat because are there going to be [08:18] protesters outside of the Kabad House? [08:21] And so after October 7th, everything [08:25] became a calculation as to how you [08:28] engage in the public sphere simply for [08:31] being someone that's Jewish. And that [08:33] could if I can let me stop you to ask, [08:36] do you have you seen experienced [08:38] protests at something like that at a [08:41] Shabbat or or outside the Kabad house or [08:45] just tell me about that? I haven't I [08:47] haven't personally experienced any [08:50] protests outside the Kabad house or or [08:54] uh Shabbat, but within those first days [08:57] of October 7th, that's what flooded my [09:00] mind was [09:02] >> are these groups of students going to [09:04] begin to target these Jewish [09:06] institutions and Jewish facilities, you [09:09] know, on campus in the local community. [09:12] And I mean, I was I was worried for my [09:15] safety. I was [09:16] >> right. Right. Well, for good reason. I [09:18] mean, we we've seen Jewish students [09:20] harassed and intimidated so many [09:23] campuses, [09:24] take the death threats at Cornell, take [09:27] the encampment at UCLA, not allowing [09:30] Jewish students to enter the building [09:31] where their classes were held. Um, [09:34] obviously there's many examples in that. [09:36] Um, and that makes sense. Students [09:38] everywhere see it online and the hate [09:41] spreads and feel the chill. I want to [09:44] ask how it's kind of changed from 2023 [09:48] to today though. Do you feel a change on [09:50] campus? There's [09:53] I mean there's still tension there. [09:55] There will always be be be tension [09:58] regarding this topic now. And you know [10:01] going back to my freshman year [10:04] I was approached by the former and this [10:09] this will all lead lead into each other. [10:11] This is just some context, but my [10:12] freshman year, the president of Student [10:15] Supporting Israel at Chapman University, [10:17] who was a junior at the time, he was [10:20] terming out, he said, "Max, I want you [10:22] to run for Student Supporting Israel. [10:24] You will be a fantastic student leader, [10:26] and please run." And I said, "Okay, I'll [10:30] run." [10:31] So, [10:34] I ended up running. I won my sophomore [10:37] year. I was president of student [10:39] supporting Israel my sophomore year and [10:41] my junior year. Everyone on campus knew [10:43] I was an unapologetic loud Zionist. I [10:47] made sure my voice was heard throughout [10:49] the campus, throughout the community. [10:52] And what really gave me the strength [10:54] through all of this was knowing that my [10:58] dad's mother and her family fled the [11:01] Holocaust. and they came from quite [11:05] frankly what it was, you know, Nazi [11:07] Europe, if you will, to the United [11:09] States in the ' 40s. [11:12] >> And understanding her story of being, [11:17] you know, a 4year-old, 5-year-old girl [11:19] that only spoke Yiddish and Russian in [11:22] Chattanooga, Tennessee, and then created [11:24] an incredible family for herself, an [11:26] incredible life for herself. That's what [11:28] really great gave me the strength and I [11:30] told myself I'm not going to go quietly [11:32] for this. And so over the course of the [11:35] last, you know, three years or almost [11:37] three years as we're approaching the [11:38] three-year anniversary of October 7th, I [11:41] would say that there aren't as many [11:43] protests on campus, [11:46] but you have this student population [11:49] that makes it a point, I believe, [11:52] because I've experienced this, makes it [11:54] a point to make Jewish students feel [11:56] uncomfortable. Whether it's following [11:58] them around on campus intentionally, [12:00] whether it's taking videos of them, [12:02] following them around with their phone [12:04] in their hand and taking videos of them, [12:06] taking photos of them. For instance, [12:09] last year I hosted two IDF combat [12:11] soldiers. And so for the 6 months prior, [12:14] the campus was pretty quiet. There [12:16] wasn't anything that happened. And so [12:18] this was back in April of this year, [12:20] 2026. I hosted two IDF combat soldiers [12:23] to discuss their experience in Gaza [12:25] following the October 7th attacks. In [12:27] publicizing [12:29] the event, my face was on the marketing [12:32] material as the moderator of president [12:34] of student supporting Israel. I received [12:37] death threats. I received people [12:39] following me around on campus. People [12:42] were taking photos of me. People were [12:44] taking videos of me. Students for [12:45] Justice in Palestine then decides to put [12:49] out material to combat our marketing [12:52] material for the event, saying, "We must [12:55] call for the end of the genocide that is [12:57] ongoing in Gaza. We cannot have Israel [13:01] occupational forces on our campus. Max [13:04] Wisman is a genocidal baby killer. Max [13:07] Wiseman supports terrorism. As far as I [13:09] know, I don't support terrorism. I don't [13:12] support any idea of terrorism. You know, [13:14] this is a group SJP that aligns [13:18] themselves with the ideology of Hassan [13:21] Per where Hassan Per is calling that 911 [13:26] was [13:27] >> deserved by [13:27] >> deserved by America that the United [13:30] States that the American people deserved [13:32] 9/11 and and and this terrorist attack, [13:36] one of the most horrific terrorist [13:37] attacks in modern history. And this is [13:39] the ideology that is calling me a [13:42] terrorist and saying that I support [13:43] terrorism and I support genocidal baby [13:46] killing. And so the event ended up [13:48] happening. We had a protest of about 80 [13:50] protesters, students for justice and [13:52] Palestine protesters chanting death to [13:54] my name, death to Max Wiseman, death to [13:57] the president of the university and [13:59] death to the dean of students. So much [14:01] so in in preparation of the event, the [14:05] school had offered me a security detail [14:08] to take me to and from the event because [14:10] they were so worried about the climate [14:12] of and the aggression that was displayed [14:15] by the students for justice in Palestine [14:18] members and as well as the students that [14:20] were affiliated with it. And it goes [14:22] back to your point of, you know, how has [14:25] the climate changed on campus? And I'd [14:27] say within the first six months of [14:29] October 7th, 2023, there were protests [14:32] and and whatnot. And in between now, [14:36] there haven't really been as many [14:38] developments, but only when the students [14:42] for supporting Israel organization or [14:44] only when any of these pro-Israel or [14:46] pro-Jewish organizations host events do [14:48] they then have to put on events to [14:50] combat our events. I'll go into this. [14:52] So, I'll I'll I'll go one further. [14:54] >> Sure. for the IDF soldier event that we [14:56] hosted to discuss their experience in [14:58] Gaza. We had an RSVP list [15:02] and [15:03] within [15:06] 24 hours the whole RSVP list was was [15:09] filled up. I said, "I know the Jewish [15:11] community is strong. I know we have a [15:12] lot of strong allies, but something's [15:14] fishy." I end up finding out later on [15:17] record a Students for Justice and [15:20] Palestine member went on record and said [15:23] that there was a movement by SJP to take [15:27] up as many registrations as they could [15:30] to max up the capacity to ensure that [15:33] Jewish students couldn't attend the IDF [15:36] event. [15:37] >> Right. Right. Right. [15:38] >> And [15:39] >> Wow. that and and in the registration [15:42] line when people are filling out their [15:44] their emails or their names, whatever it [15:46] was, their addresses, because that's [15:48] what the RSVP list requires. There were [15:51] many anti-semitic [15:53] uh uh comments, you know, GTFO [15:58] Jew Lane and you know, which which, you [16:00] know, if I may here, apologies for my [16:02] wording. get the [ __ ] out of my Jew lane [16:05] or you know 101 genocide way 101 Israeli [16:12] terrorist place or whatever it may have [16:14] been. [16:15] >> Right. Right. [16:16] >> And it just goes back to the point of [16:18] this larger movement that's [16:19] >> unorthod which is worth just stopping [16:21] for a sec and saying why is there an [16:23] RSVP list to begin with? I'm pretty sure [16:26] there are only Jewish events on campuses [16:28] that require an RSVP list right for [16:30] security reasons. Is that correct, Max? [16:32] >> So, from what I've experienced at that's [16:35] correct. And no other student group on [16:38] campus needed to have the level of [16:40] security that we needed for that event. [16:44] We had 20 police officers. We had 30 [16:47] campus security. We had a barricade [16:49] around the lecture hall and metal [16:52] detectors. No other student group on [16:54] campus needs that level of security when [16:56] they're hosting event. And I simply came [16:58] at this event with the idea of let's [17:00] host a civil discourse. Let's engage in [17:03] a difficult conversation. We're on, you [17:06] know, we're at an academic institution [17:08] and we're all here to learn. And these [17:12] group of students of students for [17:14] justice in Palestine display that they [17:16] didn't want to engage in civil [17:17] discourse, that they were very [17:20] close-minded and they had an agenda in [17:22] mind and that's what they wanted to do [17:24] and that's what they did. And then we [17:25] ended up working with the ticketing [17:26] office and they refunded all the tickets [17:28] and we ended up having 100 plus members [17:30] there and and it ended up being a [17:32] successful event. But this is what [17:34] Jewish students have to deal with all [17:36] across the country. [17:38] >> And I'll just point out for a second, [17:39] Max, that you you it went pretty well [17:41] for you at Chapman. I think Chapman's [17:43] been um from what I from my experience [17:46] there and from what I'm hearing from [17:48] you, a pretty cooperative and helpful [17:51] university administration there that got [17:53] you the police officers. they [17:56] refunded or they worked with you after [17:58] SJP, you know, artificially maxed out [18:00] your RSVPs. You did it pretty good. But [18:03] we've we've seen it on a lot of other [18:05] campuses where the university just [18:07] doesn't cooperate. The Jewish students [18:09] have to raise the money themselves to [18:10] pay for security and police officers, [18:13] the something like the RSUP situation, [18:15] school wouldn't have have worked with [18:18] our students, you know, in in quite [18:20] there's quite a few instances of that. [18:22] And so yeah, I mean it's an appalling an [18:24] appalling situation and just it's just [18:26] again I want to pause on the idea that [18:27] only Jewish students have to have this [18:30] level of security, right? And that's [18:32] that's ultimately what we need to be [18:35] doing something about here and it needs [18:36] to be nationwide. [18:39] It's [18:40] >> absolutely [18:41] >> unacceptable situation, [18:42] >> right? [18:43] >> But I have a lot of other reactions to [18:45] that story. But first of all, thank you [18:47] Max. you're to hear that 80 students [18:49] were chanting death to Max Wisman and [18:52] you stood your ground. You brought in [18:54] the idea of soldiers. You said your [18:56] piece. You spoke at the podium. You ran [18:57] for student government. That's uh that's [18:59] heroes work. We're really proud of you. [19:01] >> Thank you. [19:02] >> Keep it up. [19:04] >> Thank you. [19:04] >> Um yeah, that's but still not easy. And [19:07] I hope everyone listening kind of gets [19:09] just kind of play that video in your [19:11] mind of you know what if your niece or [19:14] nephew or son or daughter they're on a [19:16] campus and it's it's death to max. I [19:18] mean college campuses used to be a place [19:20] for debate. You were supposed to say Max [19:22] is wrong. I disagree with Max. Let's [19:24] have a debate. When did death to Max [19:28] become acceptable? And at what point [19:30] does it stop being free speech? At what [19:32] point does it become threat speech? [19:34] Right? If you yell fire in a theater, [19:37] that's not free. That's not protected [19:38] under free speech. You've endangered [19:40] everyone. You're yelling fire in a [19:42] crowded theater, right? If you're [19:43] yelling death to Max, at what point does [19:45] that become a violent threat? And I [19:48] mean, I know the answer. It became [19:50] started becoming a violent threat from [19:52] students for justice in Palestine many [19:54] years ago. And and the campuses should [19:57] be doing something. Can't just say free [19:59] speech, we can't do anything, [20:01] >> right? [20:01] >> It's Yeah. Was anyone expelled for [20:04] yelling death to Max Wiseman? [20:05] >> No one. No one was expelled. And this is [20:07] where I I have a little confusion [20:11] because the school went through all of [20:13] this great work to ensure the safety of [20:15] the Jewish students, which I'm very [20:17] grateful for. But then to allow this [20:19] group of protesters on campus, private [20:22] property of a private school to chant [20:24] death to Max and not only death to Max, [20:26] death to the president of the university [20:29] as well as Chance saying we must [20:31] globalize the second inifat and saying [20:36] chance from the river to the sea [20:37] Palestine will be free. These students [20:40] don't even know to this day what river [20:43] or what sea they are even talking about. [20:46] Right. Right. And [20:49] for me, I thought that the school should [20:52] have moved and and worked with the [20:54] police that were there to disperse the [20:57] crowd that's chanting these hateful, [21:00] anti-semitic inhumane [21:03] uh uh chance. But I mean, that's that's [21:06] just that's just my uh that's just my [21:08] thought, right? I'm not I'm not sure [21:10] what the intricacies are within the [21:12] bureaucratic outgoings of of school, if [21:15] you will. [21:16] >> Right. Why do you think we've struggled [21:19] to get our narrative out there, right? [21:23] Why is the world and and even I hate to [21:26] say, but even a lot of the Jewish [21:27] community isn't seeing that. I mean, why [21:29] why why is it they don't quite realize [21:32] that? That's kind of the one of the [21:34] major issues here right now. And the [21:37] really to me is one of the most [21:38] important aspects to this to what's [21:41] going on in the world today, right? Is [21:43] is the anti-semitism generally and [21:46] specifically the anti-semitism directed [21:48] at Jewish dudes, right? And I think many [21:51] people would be shocked to learn that [21:53] about the death to Max Wiseman chants. [21:55] Why why do you think that is? Why are we [21:56] getting our message out? [21:57] >> I think not enough individuals are [22:00] taking the time to educate themselves. [22:03] And I come from a very strong Jewish [22:07] family. My my father and my mother and [22:11] my grandparents have done an incredible [22:14] job of passing on information from [22:17] generation to generation to to inform [22:19] me. And I believe it's it's also very [22:24] simple to know where this anti-semitism [22:27] is is stemming from. I mean, the Muslim [22:29] Brotherhood has this hundred-year plan, [22:32] and they're about 50 years into this [22:33] hundred-year plan, and they make it very [22:35] clear about how they are going to come [22:39] in to Western civilization [22:41] and and try to destroy it from the [22:44] inside out. And I think a lot of us [22:47] don't number one believe it or number [22:49] two really accept it. And when you have [22:52] tens of billions of dollars that is [22:56] getting funded to these, you know, elite [22:59] Ivy institutions in the United States [23:02] from some of these Gulf States in the [23:03] Middle East with the stipulation that, [23:05] oh, we will give you the this this, you [23:07] know, billion dollar check if you have a [23:10] program on Islam and you hire, you know, [23:13] 10 Muslim professors or whatever it is. [23:15] And so it's this soft power that we've [23:17] been experiencing for really what it's [23:20] been the last 30 years. And you have [23:22] students that start to, you know, engage [23:24] in these discussions with these [23:26] professors. And you have professors that [23:28] start to use terms like resistance and [23:31] how, you know, we are standing up for [23:34] our cause and we are resisting to the [23:36] oppressor. [23:37] And it's it it's it's this soft power [23:40] not only in in school in in uh you know [23:44] on on the academic institutional level [23:46] but also in in in sports in media [23:49] whatever it may be and I believe you [23:52] have this large plan that's already been [23:56] published about flooding the media with [23:58] misinformation flooding it with [24:00] information that pulls on your [24:02] heartstrings. I think that's one of the [24:03] other things is that when when you see [24:06] videos and and photos of malnourished [24:09] children and and women or whatever it [24:11] may be, I mean, that'll touch the heart [24:13] of anyone and people feel so strongly [24:16] that they'll want to fight back. And one [24:18] of the other things that I that I [24:19] believe is that many of these students [24:22] and students for justice in Palestine, [24:24] they don't have any other community [24:26] besides this one. I think I think a lot [24:28] of them are really lonely. I mean, one [24:30] of one of the other things for me that I [24:32] still trying to wrap my mind around is [24:34] the queers for Palestine. That's like [24:36] having chickens for KFC. And I don't [24:38] understand why you have this queers for [24:42] Palestine movement. You go to any, you [24:45] know, state that's ruled by Sharia law, [24:47] you you will be killed. And I think that [24:51] there's just been a great job done by [24:54] the Muslim Brotherhood and by aligning [24:56] institutions, aligning governments that [24:59] uh are are implementing the soft power [25:01] and and indoctrinating quite frankly and [25:04] misinforming many many students and many [25:07] adults as well. [25:08] >> Right. No, I think you're you're [25:09] definitely on to something because you [25:11] know it's it's I have this conversation, [25:14] you know, thousands of times. the [25:17] conversation that goes something like [25:19] like Alan, how is this happening? Why? [25:21] Like what is how is this anti-Israel [25:24] propaganda and this anti-semitism [25:25] spreading like wildfire? Why? And people [25:29] tend to think of the messaging, right? [25:31] How the language and the message spreads [25:34] and and and they don't focus on the [25:37] machinery behind it. Right? They're [25:39] thinking about the message and not the [25:41] machinery. What get where you're getting [25:43] at is the machinery. Right. How what has [25:47] billions in Qatari funding at our [25:49] universities? What has that what has [25:51] been the return on investment for the [25:53] Qatari that that's one piece of the [25:55] machinery, right? What about paying for [25:58] thous hundreds of thousands millions of [26:00] bots on social media, right? Who who's [26:03] behind that machinery, right? The [26:04] astroturf campaigns and the and the paid [26:07] clicks and and just there there's so [26:09] much machinery to kind of for us to [26:11] still research and discover, right? [26:13] That's so I think you're you're on to [26:15] something. And and you mentioned Queers [26:17] for Palestine. I I remember in my day on [26:20] campus, you know, the years 2005 to to [26:23] 2009 back then is really like when we [26:26] started seeing that coalition come [26:28] together that students for justice in [26:30] Palestine, recruiting queers for [26:32] Palestine and recruiting a lot of me a [26:34] lot of members, not everyone, but a lot [26:36] of members of the black student unions [26:37] of the Latino student groups, they they [26:39] were able to to do that over the years. [26:42] And I I remember back then we were able [26:45] to stop them in in quite a few cases. [26:48] But I right in other words, if we know [26:50] if we knew students for justice in [26:51] Palestine were meeting with the Black [26:53] Student Union and trying to get them to [26:55] support BDS, you know, we would try to [26:57] get we get involved and and I know I as [26:59] a student, you know, thankfully we won [27:01] quite a few battles, but I think the the [27:03] war in the big scheme of things, SJP and [27:06] and others and the whole ecosystem [27:07] behind them did did a lot of damage. And [27:11] you know, if you stopped them once, [27:13] they'd come back the next year, right? [27:15] And they'd come back the next year, [27:16] they'd come back on 10 more campuses. [27:18] And and so I think that's where a lot of [27:22] the Jewish community, we're not really [27:25] focusing on that that part of it. I [27:27] think you're you're really on to [27:28] something important there, [27:29] >> right? I mean, and and it goes back to [27:31] to the rhetoric that this group is is [27:34] spewing, you know, talking about how the [27:36] United States of America is the villain. [27:39] Talking about how how, you know, there's [27:41] been a historical pattern of violence [27:43] and talks about US imperialism crushing [27:47] movements for justice and liberation and [27:49] whatever else it might be. I mean almost [27:51] I mean they're making me think that it's [27:53] racist to be a patriot that I I'm an [27:57] oppressor for believing in capitalism [27:59] and it's been this you know like I [28:03] mentioned indoctrination that has taken [28:04] place against so many people making them [28:06] feel that oh my gosh I'm a part of this [28:09] terrible American capitalist society and [28:12] I need to give back and contribute but [28:14] no you know we have some weak moments in [28:16] our history you know in the United [28:18] States and I'd like to think that [28:20] believe we've learned from them. We've [28:22] come back stronger. We strive to be [28:24] better every day. The United States and [28:25] Israel. I mean, I believe I just read a [28:28] report that Israel had like the third [28:30] second or strongest economy for like a [28:32] third year in a row or whatever it was [28:33] in the Middle East. I'm maybe getting [28:35] that that statistic wrong, but going [28:37] back to the strength and resilience of [28:38] the United States and and in Israel. And [28:41] you know, for me, all of a sudden, it's [28:42] like, no, I'm not going to let people [28:44] tell me how to believe. I'm going to go [28:46] do my own research and I'm going to line [28:48] it up for me. And I think many students [28:50] get too scared to go and do their own [28:52] research and to speak up because they've [28:54] just been told you're racist for being a [28:56] patriot. You're an oppressor for [28:58] believing in capitalism. You should feel [29:01] ashamed of yourself for your heritage. I [29:04] absolutely don't feel ashamed of myself [29:06] for my heritage and for what I believe [29:08] in. I love the United States. I love [29:10] Israel. And I think a lot more students [29:14] need to educate themselves. [29:15] >> Such an important point. I um such an [29:18] important point. How [29:22] I I do think though that with all of [29:25] that said there there's this is a very [29:26] complex question, right? This the entire [29:28] PR battle, the the anti-Israel uh and [29:32] anti-semitic propaganda machine. Very [29:34] complex topic. We just touched on the [29:36] machinery a minute ago. Now you're [29:37] talking about this the guilt aspect, [29:39] right? You're telling students you [29:41] should feel guilty if you're pro- Israel [29:43] or pro America for that matter. Um, very [29:47] important points. I think also our [29:49] messaging does deserve some attention, [29:51] right? And I think I do think we should [29:54] be doing a little bit of a better job [29:56] telling our story, right? And the death [29:58] to Max Wiseman story is a perfect [30:00] example of that. We we it needs to be [30:02] out there, right? And and not just um [30:05] not just uh sort of recited like a piece [30:09] of data, right? Right. [30:11] >> You know, 200 anti-semitic attacks. 200 [30:14] anti-semitic attacks doesn't paint a [30:17] picture for anyone. It doesn't make [30:18] anyone imagine or feel anything. But [30:22] picture [30:24] 80 students chanting death to your name [30:26] or your son or daughter's name. That I [30:30] think the American public needs to to to [30:33] be able to picture that. [30:34] >> And and I think the same is true for how [30:38] we talk about October 7, right? to bring [30:41] that back to [30:42] >> we're having this conversation because [30:44] October 7th is is coming up here and um [30:48] and when we do discuss Israel and the [30:50] region, I think we have to tell the [30:52] story of October 7th in in detail in [30:56] some detail. And it's I know it's [30:57] uncomfortable because it's graphic to [31:00] discuss the way that Hamas murderers [31:03] went into a grandmother's house [31:07] and killed her in a painful way with a [31:10] knife and took food from her fridge [31:12] while murdering her and took her phone [31:15] so that they could live stream on [31:17] Facebook Live her murder so that it [31:20] wouldn't only she wouldn't only be [31:22] killed, they would terrorize and and [31:25] traumatize guys or her family who would [31:27] have to witness the murder on her [31:29] Facebook live, right? To to take your [31:32] audience on campus and tell them about [31:36] October 7th in story form [31:39] is something I think we haven't we [31:41] haven't done enough. Right? Again, if [31:42] you say 1,200 Israelis were killed on [31:45] that doesn't make anyone picture [31:47] anything, [31:47] >> right? [31:48] >> But when you explain that grandmother or [31:51] the one of the not all the rapes, one of [31:53] the rapes, right? explain one of the [31:56] rapes of the people trying to escape the [31:59] Nova the Nova Festival and explain that [32:04] these terrorists were capable of raping [32:07] a young woman and then and then [32:12] murdering her with a with an axe and not [32:15] a painless execution, a a cutting off of [32:18] the head, right, of someone they just [32:20] raped. They just put her through the [32:23] worst torture possible and then and then [32:27] decide to murder her after that. I mean, [32:29] um, telling that in story form is, I [32:32] think, a big part of what we need to be [32:34] doing. [32:35] >> Absolutely. I agree with you. And I [32:36] think that's one of the great things [32:37] that the Husbara Fellowship does is [32:42] bringing students from North America to [32:45] Israel and going through all of these [32:47] individual stories. I mean, when I was [32:50] at the Nova Film Festival and talking to [32:52] survivors, whether I was at, you know, [32:54] the the different kiwim in in the uh [32:57] Gaza envelope and talking to them about [33:00] what these communities went through, I [33:02] mean, it really gives you some [33:04] perspective of being in the actual home [33:08] that still has gunshots in it, that [33:11] still has blood splattered. I mean, even [33:13] talking about it, thinking about it [33:14] makes me so emotional because I forget [33:16] what it's called, but there's this term [33:17] in Hebrew where it's like the the [33:19] sections of the kibbut scene that's for [33:20] like the younger, you know, adults or or [33:23] or the younger students, whatever it may [33:25] be. And we were in the the the home in [33:29] this kibbutz [33:31] that was for these two, you know, [33:34] people, a girlfriend, boyfriend, that [33:35] were set to get married and they were [33:39] killed in their home that they thought [33:42] they were safe in. and listening to the [33:45] stories of how Hamas terrorists would [33:48] cut the gas line and light a fire to to [33:52] light the house on fire while Israelis [33:55] and and but beyond Israelis just people [33:57] while humans were trapped in their [33:59] barricaded rooms in their safe rooms and [34:02] the Hamas terrorists know either they're [34:04] going to burn alive and stay in that [34:06] safe room or if they exit we're going to [34:08] shoot them and we're going to kill them. [34:10] I mean it it is so inhumane. I mean, you [34:13] talk about all these stories and and [34:15] going into these individual moments and [34:18] it really really gives you perspective [34:20] and helps you visualize it. And that's [34:22] for me what really solidified my my [34:27] commitment to fighting for this cause [34:29] was going to these communities and going [34:31] to these kibbutim which mind you were [34:34] some of the most peaceful people in in [34:36] in all of Israel who just want peace who [34:38] live who are trying to live alongside [34:40] their neighbor to prove that it's [34:41] possible. [34:42] And this was the first group of people [34:45] that was attacked on October 7th was the [34:48] ones who wanted peace the most. [34:50] >> And it's very emotional. [34:52] >> Yeah. And that's that's why we take we [34:54] take you guys there, our students, and [34:57] and we want you to share your photos and [34:59] share your stories and and and tell [35:01] people what you saw. You know, I think [35:04] the the anti-Israel crowd has gotten so [35:07] many people to adopt the lie that Israel [35:10] is committing genocide in Gaza, [35:12] >> right? [35:12] >> And [35:14] there's there are millions out there who [35:17] have no idea what they're talking about, [35:19] but believe believe that lie, right? [35:22] right? And they they see data, of [35:24] course, it's a lot of falsified data and [35:26] misinformation and so forth, but they [35:28] hear, you know, Israel committed [35:30] genocide or uh x number were killed last [35:34] month in Gaza or they hear all sorts of [35:36] statistics like that. But I think the [35:38] message that our America isn't hearing [35:41] and certainly our our university [35:43] students aren't hearing is is that [35:46] narrative form, right? It's it's it's [35:48] the feeling of what it looks like. So, [35:50] let me tell you what a what an [35:51] unfortunate or innocent death in Gaza [35:54] looks like, right? In go if if a death [35:56] in Gaza occurs, it's something like [35:58] this. Israeli soldiers who are reserve [36:01] family members. They're your lawyer or [36:03] they're your barber and they were called [36:05] in to leave their families to join the [36:07] reserves for a month and they're helping [36:08] and they're fighting in Gaza and they [36:10] see something like a warehouse with a [36:13] thousand missiles and they call in their [36:15] commander and say there's a warehouse [36:16] with a thousand missiles but kamas put [36:18] it right near a school. [36:21] What do we do? And then commander says, [36:24] "We believe that school will be off at 3 [36:27] p.m. Let's wait till 3M." At 3 p.m. [36:29] there's always and in war there's always [36:31] lack of clarity. So it's we believe the [36:33] school is now empty. We're not 100% [36:35] sure. Well, there are a thousand [36:37] missiles and those will be shot at my [36:39] children. Do we take our shot? Satellite [36:41] imagery says with 99% certainty the [36:44] school is empty. Let's take our shot. [36:46] And then yeah in war because the [36:49] terrorists have set up such a difficult [36:52] arena right they have purposely put [36:54] those missiles near the school sometimes [36:56] mistakes happen. And so in trying to [36:59] save lives and in trying to take out [37:02] those thousand missiles [37:04] someone that was still in the school [37:05] after hours may have been may have been [37:08] killed. And that's tragic. But it's 100% [37:11] the responsibility of the terrorists of [37:14] Hamas that they created that situation [37:17] on purpose. That is what an innocent [37:19] death in Gaza looks like. Okay? When a [37:21] democratic army, the army of a [37:23] democratic country is out there [37:24] defending itself, that is what an exit, [37:26] that is what a death looks like in Gaza. [37:29] A death at the hands of Hamas on the [37:31] Israeli side is the terrorists march [37:34] into the house, take food from the [37:36] fridge, see the grandma, she's not a [37:40] threat to them. They're talking to her. [37:42] There's four terrorists with guns [37:44] against one grandmother. They see her in [37:46] the look her in the eyes, they meet her [37:48] and they decide to execute her and then [37:50] film it. There's a huge moral [37:52] difference, [37:53] >> right? [37:53] >> And that's where our side needs to tell [37:56] that story. Don't just give numbers or [37:58] data the story, [38:00] >> right? No, it's it's very true. I mean, [38:02] I I keep coming back to this interview [38:05] that I listened to with Ambassador [38:07] Lighter, the Israeli ambassador to the [38:09] United States, where he lost his oldest [38:13] son in a a home in Gaza that was booby [38:17] trapped. And he that the ambassador goes [38:22] on to say if they were re if if if the [38:26] allegations that they are saying against [38:30] us were really true, if the genocide we [38:33] were committing is really true, my son [38:35] would still be alive today. I mean, let [38:37] let that sink in. My son would still be [38:40] alive today. And now he has another son [38:42] that's in critical condition after [38:44] having gone through through through [38:45] another terror attack while he was on [38:48] duty. [38:49] And [38:51] it it it goes to show you the the [38:53] importance and need of talking through [38:56] these individual stories. And when [38:57] talking to IDF combat soldiers, I asked [39:00] them, you know, in Israel, uh [39:04] at the IDF base, I asked them, you know, [39:05] we see all these images [39:08] of [39:10] these homes in Gaza just completely [39:12] leveled. And then you hear allegations [39:14] of Israel carpet bombing neighborhoods. [39:16] you know what's really true and the IDF [39:19] soldiers say well listen Max you know [39:21] just engaging in conversation Max a lot [39:23] of those homes are booby trapped by [39:26] Hamas terrorists [39:28] to kill our own IDF soldiers and more [39:31] often than not those homes are just [39:32] vacant they're empty and so we conduct [39:35] our due diligence we take our drones and [39:38] we do you know the surveys and heat maps [39:40] and whatnot and make sure that there's [39:42] no one around uh and if they are and if [39:44] they do pose a threat then then you know [39:47] we we take out the threat. But the [39:49] reason why we why those homes are all [39:51] level is not because we are carpet [39:53] bombing these homes. It's because [39:54] they're booby trapped and we don't want [39:56] our soldiers to go into booby trapped [39:58] homes and lose more soldiers. And so [39:59] that's another story that's not getting [40:02] talked about in the media enough with [40:05] with this context. And and you know, [40:07] imagine for for an SJP member, they see [40:11] images of just leveled neighborhoods in [40:13] Gaza with allegations of Israel just [40:16] carpet bombing neighborhoods. That's [40:19] what they're going to believe. That's [40:20] going to run off and talk with and and [40:22] say, you know, Israel is a genocidal [40:24] state. They're carpet bombing [40:25] neighborhoods in Gaza. they're killing [40:27] tens of thousands of people. But no, [40:29] that's actually not the case. When you [40:31] go and talk to the IDF combat soldiers, [40:33] when you talk to, you know, IDF [40:35] intelligence soldiers, whatever it may [40:37] be, they are conducting an incredible [40:40] amount of due diligence in order to [40:43] prevent uh the the the loss of life on [40:45] on a mass scale in in Gaza. [40:48] just in the few minutes we we have left [40:50] here, I want to go back to campus and [40:52] just ask you, how do you stay confident [40:55] and positive with what you go through? [40:58] >> It's a great question. So, going back to [41:01] the April 13th IDF event that I hosted [41:03] with the that with the IDF soldiers, for [41:06] the first week of publicizing the event, [41:08] I, you know, like I said, received death [41:11] threats. SJP was calling my name [41:14] directly on their social media platforms [41:16] and I was a target for for them and I [41:19] was in my room at my house for a week [41:21] and my dad calls me cuz he's track you [41:23] know tracks my location on find my [41:24] iPhone. Max, buddy, what's going on? You [41:27] know, why why have you you you haven't [41:28] left your house in in the last week? And [41:33] I was like, Dad, you know, people hate [41:35] me because I'm Jewish. They hate me [41:37] because I I I am bringing these Israeli [41:40] Defense Force soldiers to campus. And he [41:42] says, Max, your grandmother didn't come [41:45] with her family from Nazi Europe for you [41:48] to cower in your room in the face of [41:52] anti-semitism. You go out there and you [41:55] prove these protesters that guys [41:58] themselves as activists [42:00] that are really haters and you prove to [42:04] them that you're not to be messed with [42:06] and you have the strength and resilience [42:08] of the Jewish people and the collective [42:11] history of the Jewish people behind you. [42:13] And I don't know what it was but in that [42:15] moment I was like, "Holy shit." Like, [42:16] "Yeah, Dad, you're right." I got fired [42:18] up. I mean, and and it just did [42:21] something to me that that after that [42:23] moment, after I heard people chanting [42:25] death to my name, people thought I was [42:26] pro- Israel before, people thought I was [42:28] a patriot before the United States of [42:30] America. Well, hell, they better guess [42:32] again because I am 10 times that now [42:34] compared to what I was, you know, 7 [42:36] months ago. And that's what really gave [42:38] me the strength. I mean, I mean, right [42:40] now, you know, I I have I have my seed [42:41] door, you know, on my on my desk, right? [42:44] and and I I I pray, you know, in the [42:47] morning, I pray at night, I wrap the [42:49] fill in. And that's what gives me gives [42:51] me the strength is knowing that my [42:53] grandmother came to this country with [42:56] nothing. Put my grandfather through law [42:58] school, worked three jobs, and now [42:59] they're contributors to the Jewish [43:01] community, philanthropists in the Jewish [43:03] community. And that's what gave me the [43:05] strength is that I'm not going to let [43:08] these [43:10] unintelligible [43:12] blue marshmallows, blue-haired [43:13] marshmallows, quite frankly, tell me uh [43:18] what to believe and how to act. I mean, [43:20] one of the other books I have on my desk [43:22] right here is When We See You Again by [43:25] Rachel uh Goldberg Paul, you know, [43:28] Hersh's mother. [43:30] >> And it's the personal stories like [43:32] these. It's knowing that I have the [43:34] collective support of the Jewish people [43:36] behind me. That's what gives me the [43:38] strength is knowing our history and [43:41] knowing how resilient we've been able to [43:44] be o over the last, you know, thousands [43:47] of years of of our existence. And so [43:50] coming up on October 7th, I'm sure we [43:52] will have protesters on campus. I am [43:55] sure people will call me a genocidal [43:57] baby killer. I'm sure people will call [43:59] me complicit in terrorism. But I know [44:02] that number one, they're wrong. They're [44:04] uneducated. And I have the strength of [44:06] the Jewish people behind me. And that's [44:08] what keeps me going in in in this in [44:12] this fight of of light versus darkness [44:14] and evil. That's awesome. That that's uh [44:19] really great. I wanna but I will ask you [44:23] one or two last questions which is [44:24] what's one thing you'd say to your own [44:27] self if you were a freshman again or to [44:29] a new new student starting now as a [44:32] firstear student in college what would [44:34] be your advice [44:35] >> I would say do not be ashamed from where [44:38] you come from and of your heritage and [44:41] of your people I mean everyone has [44:45] a story and and and a rich heritage [44:50] And don't let yourself be targeted for [44:55] being you, for being authentic to [44:57] yourself. You know, I I thought we lived [44:59] in a world where we pride ourselves on [45:01] authenticity and and and ingenuity. Why [45:04] all of a sudden are are we going to be [45:06] targeted for for that? I mean, that's [45:08] what I would tell myself back as a [45:10] freshman is you continue to wear that [45:12] Mcend as you continue to stand up [45:14] against the the anti-semitism and the [45:17] hate because [45:20] when you have students that are met with [45:23] such strength, such overwhelming [45:25] resolve, they will end up backing down [45:28] because they will understand that [45:30] they're going against a force that is [45:33] unstoppable. That's that's that's what I [45:35] would that's what I would tell myself is [45:37] that just stay strong. [45:39] >> Yeah. [45:40] >> Great stuff, Max. Thank you for being [45:41] here with us and looking forward to the [45:43] next time we get to chat. [45:44] >> Likewise. Thank you, Alan. Thanks,
