Transcript [00:00] Welcome back to Discover Your Roots. My [00:02] name is Josiah McGee and I'm your host [00:04] for season 5. This season, my good [00:06] friend Jesse Rojo and I are tackling one [00:08] of the tough questions dividing [00:10] Christians today. Can you actually be a [00:12] Christian and support Israel and the [00:14] Jewish people? Or are those two things [00:16] actually at odds? So, let's pull up a [00:18] chair, open the Bible, and work through [00:19] it together, one question at a time. [00:22] This is episode one. Welcome, Jesse, to [00:24] your your maiden voyage, as they say, on [00:26] the Discover Your Roots podcast. your [00:28] first appearance. Very glad to have you. [00:30] Anything you want to say before we jump [00:32] into this? [00:33] >> Happy to be here. Very excited to have [00:35] these conversations, which I believe [00:37] oftent time is not uh being had enough. [00:40] So, I'm happy that I get to do this with [00:42] you and get to geek out a little bit, as [00:44] you say. [00:46] >> Oh, yeah. People [00:48] >> I've been telling people, we're going to [00:49] get real nerdy, Jesse and I, we're going [00:50] to have a good time together. So, to [00:52] kick us off though, I think we do need [00:53] to to set the stage a little bit. We [00:56] definitely need to introduce you a [00:57] little bit better. We haven't said much [00:59] about you yet, Jesse. So, we should [01:00] should do that for sure. We also need [01:02] to, I think, define a couple of terms [01:04] and think about why they are so [01:07] frequently confused and sort of set up [01:10] the problem that we're trying to unpack [01:12] a little bit during the course of the [01:14] season. So, we've got a work cut out for [01:16] us today. But first, Jesse, I'd love it [01:18] if you wouldn't mind just telling us a [01:20] little bit about yourself. For starters, [01:22] I mean, I I'll just say this much. You [01:23] are the senior vice president of [01:25] Passages Latino, overseeing Passages [01:27] outreach to the Latino community. That's [01:29] obviously tall order. You are a very [01:31] busy man doing a lot of stuff in that [01:33] community. But I think what's even more [01:35] interesting, no offense, is uh your your [01:37] backstory, your personal story. It's [01:39] kind of kind of crazy in my opinion. So [01:41] would you mind just introducing yourself [01:43] to our audience and telling them a [01:44] little bit more about that story? [01:46] >> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it [01:47] would be helpful to start off with [01:49] saying, you know, what are one of my [01:51] favorite attributes of God? And it's [01:53] because it was it played such a [01:54] fundamental role in my my journey, my [01:57] life journey. And that's God's [01:59] sovereignty. It's this idea of him being [02:00] in control of everything. So I I was [02:03] born and raised in New York City in a [02:05] small Dominican community today known as [02:07] Little Dominican Republic, Washington [02:08] Heights. I I always introduce myself as [02:11] I'm just a kid from the Heights, man. [02:13] Because growing up in the city, the [02:14] world was so big, you know, as they say, [02:16] you live in the concrete jungle and so [02:18] and and you live in an immigrant [02:20] community. So for you, it's very easy to [02:22] see kind of the the obstacles you have [02:24] to kind of navigate through life and you [02:25] don't really have answers to any of [02:27] these things. So I found comfort on the [02:30] idea that well I don't have to be in [02:32] control of everything because the the [02:34] the the person I follow, he's in control [02:37] of everything and he wants what's best [02:39] for me. So much so that he can turn [02:41] everything even other things that other [02:44] people might intend for evil turn it for [02:46] good to to shape in me. So growing up in [02:49] the Heights, that was a very important [02:51] element in my life because you know just [02:54] like most teenagers in the city I guess [02:57] they they are hyperexposed to a lot of [03:00] the vices and struggles that you might [03:02] find in urban context and not so much [03:04] another one. So I ended up in in the [03:06] gang life member of the Latin Kings and [03:09] you know for about I don't know four or [03:10] five years of my life mostly during my [03:12] high school years I made a dumb decision [03:15] after another dumb decision until really [03:18] God showed me the emptiness of my ways [03:21] right the like the cohellet the the [03:23] preacher of Ecclesiastes [03:25] you know vanity of all vanities really I [03:28] for me that was such a a realization at [03:31] such a teenage age and that journey [03:34] really started in to plant a seed in me, [03:37] a desire to really change my life and [03:39] and go back to church because I grew up [03:41] in church like most Latino families and [03:43] you get exposed to the teachings. But it [03:45] isn't until sometimes God hits you and [03:48] confronts you face to face with your own [03:49] sins. And I ended up in church, ended up [03:52] going to seminary, graduated, and all of [03:55] a sudden I get thrusted into the [03:57] pro-Israel space and Jewish Christian [03:59] relations, which is another exciting [04:00] journey in my life. But here I am and [04:02] for the last I'd say 12 years now I've [04:05] had the privilege of even growing in my [04:07] own faith and my professional journey in [04:10] relation with the Jewish people and and [04:13] traveling to Israel and learning so much [04:15] about history and what's going on in in [04:17] day and age and be able to invite my [04:19] community to this conversation. I always [04:21] say if you're not involved, how could [04:24] you complain and not and protest but not [04:27] do what it takes to prevent the [04:29] circumstances in which we are? As a [04:31] friend of mine would say, if you're not [04:33] part of the table, you're part of the [04:35] menu. So, let's be part of the table. [04:37] >> That's quite the statement, but yeah, I [04:39] I get where you're coming from. That's [04:40] that's pretty remarkable. I think I [04:42] mean, obviously, Jesse, there's a lot of [04:44] really interesting backstory to your [04:47] life and your professional journey. Some [04:48] of the things I I really appreciate [04:50] about you and just wanted the audience [04:51] to know about you is you obviously are [04:53] very well traveled. You're also someone [04:55] who's remarkably wellstudied, the [04:57] obviously time you've put in, you know, [04:59] spending some time in school, in [05:01] seminary, but also in just ongoing study [05:05] and specifically study of the word. I [05:07] think that's something that, you know, [05:08] we don't see a lot of necessarily as [05:11] people who think deeply about theology [05:13] by spending an incredible amount of time [05:15] in the word. you know, it's easy to read [05:16] a lot about theology without actually [05:19] thinking about the way that scripture [05:20] informs it. So, [05:21] >> I really appreciate about that that [05:23] about you and look forward to unpacking [05:26] that more this season and hearing you [05:28] unpack the Bible a little bit [05:30] >> and not not just all the different [05:32] sources that are debating some of these [05:33] issues, but what the Bible has to say. I [05:35] did want to ask you real quick before we [05:37] jump into some of the, you know, the [05:40] basics of the questions we've been [05:42] getting and we're going to be covering [05:43] this season. What is it that really drew [05:46] you to Jewish Christian relations in the [05:47] first place? I mean, why did that become [05:49] something that you are passionate about [05:51] and do spend a lot of time studying or [05:55] thinking about? [05:55] >> Yeah. In the beginning, I mentioned [05:57] Washington Heights and today is known as [05:59] Little Dominican Republic, but before [06:01] that, it was known as Frankfurt on the [06:02] Hudson, referring to refugee refugee [06:04] Jews that left Nazi Germany in flee of [06:08] the Holocaust and what was happening in [06:10] Europe. And so the first neighbors, the [06:12] first police officers, the first [06:14] firefighters, teachers, mentors that we [06:16] had were the Jewish people. And in the [06:18] 60s, Dominicans started coming in the [06:21] masses into the states because of the [06:24] the civil war that ensued in Dominican [06:27] Republic, the the take the takedown of [06:30] the dictatorship of Trujillo. And so [06:32] during that period, the first [06:33] communities that kind of understood [06:35] where we were coming out of and kind of [06:37] going into as immigrants into a new [06:39] community, new culture, new language, it [06:42] was the Jewish people. And I've had my [06:45] personal life mentors, people that I [06:47] didn't even know they were Jewish at the [06:49] time. Because when you're a kid growing [06:50] up in a neighborhood, it's not like [06:51] you're counting how many Jews, how many [06:53] Italians, Irish people live around you, [06:55] right? We're you're just part of a [06:57] community. And [06:57] >> you don't really know where those [06:58] differences until you're older. [07:00] >> Exactly. it doesn't really matter to [07:02] you. You you just want to connect with [07:04] your neighbors. And I got to see in the [07:05] early '90s Jews and Dominicans even come [07:08] together to clean up the streets uh in [07:10] upper Manhattan. But I've had [07:11] individuals in my life that have gone [07:13] above and beyond to to show me that I [07:17] can believe in myself, that no matter [07:19] the struggles or challenges that I may [07:20] be facing, I can keep going in life. And [07:23] it wasn't until years later that I [07:25] understood why they've had so much faith [07:27] in me because they've had similar in [07:29] their Jewish background with their own [07:31] family. So it really my my first [07:33] affinity with the Jewish people started [07:35] there as a community, not necessarily as [07:37] a theological question. And and of [07:39] course my other connection with them was [07:41] through the scriptures. Every Sunday [07:43] I've heard about the Jewish people. We [07:45] read about the biblical story of Israel. [07:47] You you hear it every every weekend [07:50] going in and going out. But it wasn't [07:52] until I started doing this work that I [07:54] tried to connect both ideas, modern [07:57] Jewish people, modern Israel and [07:59] biblical Israel. And I never really had [08:01] to struggle with the idea of reconciling [08:03] the two because it wasn't really a [08:05] question until I got into the space. And [08:08] I realized there existed a debate within [08:10] certain circles, Christian circles about [08:13] what is Israel and and you know it do [08:16] the Jewish are the Jewish people today [08:18] the the same biblical Israel in the [08:19] Bible. That took me to an interesting [08:21] journey because since I've never had to [08:23] challenge myself with that question, it [08:25] wasn't until my adult healed years. And [08:27] I'm glad that I had skills to study the [08:29] scripture like this happened to me after [08:31] seminary where I had the opportunity to [08:33] really study for myself and and look at [08:35] the books and look at the text and and [08:37] really come to my own conclusion in [08:39] terms of what Israel is. And I realized, [08:41] and we can get into this and we'll get [08:42] into this, I'm sure, along the series, [08:44] is that the Bible's absolutely [08:46] unambiguous with regards to Israel. that [08:49] the only reason people even question the [08:51] idea is because there are other ideas [08:53] that we're imposing into the text that [08:55] it's not in the text because we start [08:58] with Israel as a theological or [09:00] esqueological question rather than an [09:02] academic one rather than a hermeneutical [09:04] one. What does the text actually say? [09:06] And then once we agree to that because [09:09] this is a scientific question not just a [09:12] theological one then we can make [09:14] theological implications and we can [09:16] wrestle with but I feel like when when [09:18] we start with the question of Israel if [09:20] we don't define those terms we're [09:22] starting off on the wrong foot already. [09:24] >> So let's [09:26] this is great. This is great Jesse. I [09:28] think this is where we want to really [09:29] spend most of our time today then is [09:31] let's let's define some of those terms [09:33] because if we [09:34] >> if we zoom out just to sort of remind [09:36] everyone why are we having this series [09:39] of conversations that we're going to [09:40] have over the course of this season. [09:41] It's because there is a very lively [09:43] debate right now about where in the [09:46] Bible do we get certain ideas about [09:48] Israel and the Jewish people. Can you [09:51] support Israel and the Jewish people [09:52] from a theological perspective and still [09:54] be a Christian or does that make you a [09:56] heretic? Because there are some very [09:58] loud people right now in the public spa [10:00] in the public space arguing as [10:02] Christians that fellow believers are in [10:05] fact heretics if they support Israel and [10:07] the Jewish people. That in a nutshell is [10:09] is the problem that we're we're trying [10:12] to unpack as carefully as we can over [10:14] the course of the season. And to your [10:16] point, Jesse, a lot of it is going to be [10:17] pointless. It's just going to be noise [10:19] if we don't actually define some terms [10:20] we're all on the same page about what [10:21] are we talking about. So let's let's try [10:24] to do that. I think it is important to [10:26] understand things. I I appreciate your [10:29] framework that we're going to try to [10:30] frame things whenever possible from a [10:32] from a biblical perspective. What does [10:34] the Bible actually say about these [10:35] things? Some of these issues also are [10:38] labels that are not necessarily found in [10:40] the Bible but have been sort of [10:42] superimposed and we need to also define [10:44] those as well. So I I think where we [10:46] should start today, Jesse, is trying to [10:48] understand what exactly is Israel? you [10:51] know, the different ways in which that [10:53] term is used biblically or from external [10:56] sources. Who is Israel? Maybe we can [10:58] unpack this a little bit. And I I want [10:59] to start with what the Bible actually [11:01] says. One of the one of the questions we [11:03] get all the time from listeners of this [11:05] podcast in previous seasons or from [11:07] alumni of various pastors programs is [11:10] what what does the Bible actually say [11:12] that Israel is as a category? Is it an [11:15] ethnic category? Is it a national [11:18] category? A spiritual category? like [11:20] what what is what what is this? Help us [11:22] make sense of this. [11:24] >> Well, it's a great question and it's one [11:26] of those questions that one of my Jewish [11:28] friends would say, well, you if you ask [11:30] two Jews, you'll get three answers. [11:31] Right. So, and and and that's important [11:34] to understand. There's no necessary [11:36] consensus consensus in the world, [11:39] whether in church or in the synagogue in [11:41] terms of what is Israel, who is Israel. [11:44] Now, there is a historical stance and I [11:46] think it's worth mentioning the Tucker [11:48] Cruz interview because that's such a [11:51] great example of how a conversation can [11:54] get off on the wrong foot. You know, [11:56] Tucker asks a theological question to [11:59] Cruz about why Christians should support [12:01] Israel. And so, naturally, Cruz goes to [12:03] the text, well, you know, as a [12:05] Christian, Genesis 12:3. And then he [12:07] does a bait and switch. So, you mean [12:08] that we should support the government of [12:10] Netanyahu and all of that the government [12:12] says and does? Well, that's not the [12:14] question, right? The question is why [12:17] should Christians support Israel? This [12:20] is a theological question, a very [12:22] foundational question compared to the [12:24] political one. That's an implication of [12:25] this foundational question. So, you [12:27] know, it's confusing the the trees from [12:29] the forest is is starting off on the [12:31] wrong foot. We don't we don't agree in [12:33] terms of who is Israel and and the [12:35] church has defined that for many years. [12:38] So, by the very nature of the question, [12:40] Tucker is already revealing his [12:42] ignorance. He and he he doesn't realize [12:44] that from the church father all the way [12:45] till today to the Puritans and today [12:48] there's always been these two ideas of [12:50] Israel. Israel according to the flesh [12:52] and Israel according to the faith. [12:54] Israel according to the flesh has always [12:55] been understood as the Jewish people. [12:58] The physical Israel the the literal uh [13:01] descendants of Abraham, right? And those [13:03] who are of the faith are those who are [13:06] not of the circumcision of the flesh but [13:07] of the circumcision of the heart. Right? [13:09] That's the term that the the Hebrew [13:10] Bible uses. and Paul um brings that over [13:13] into the New Testament. So it it really [13:15] starts there and I have actually [13:17] gathered a few quotes you know from [13:19] church fathers all the way to re [13:21] refirmer. You have for example Justin [13:22] martyr in a dialogue to trifle referring [13:25] to for the true spiritual Israel are we [13:28] who have been led to God through this [13:30] crucified Christ. So he understands that [13:31] there's a spiritual Israel versus a [13:34] literal one. Right? origin perhaps has [13:37] the clearest formulation saying there is [13:40] one Israel according to the flesh and [13:42] another Israel another according to the [13:44] spirit and the principus and Augustine [13:47] and John Chrysm you know I could keep [13:49] going from from even Martin Luther and [13:51] Calvin to the second generation of [13:53] reformers have all articulated [13:55] understanding based on scripture that [13:57] there is two Israels and Paul actually [14:00] makes reference to this in Romans 9:6 [14:03] when he says for not all who are [14:05] descended ed from Israel, right? [14:07] Descendants of Israel belong to Israel. [14:11] We understand that he's making a [14:13] theological argument here. He's he's [14:15] distinguishing between a spiritual [14:16] Israel and a literal Israel, which [14:19] according to the testimony of scripture, [14:21] they've always coexisted. You see that [14:23] all the way from the Hebrew Bible to [14:24] today, they were called the remnant, [14:26] right? The spiritual Israel that God [14:27] used to kind of preserve the totality of [14:30] Israel as a people and as a nation. And [14:32] we can get into all the theology of of [14:35] everything I say. I know that it's it's [14:36] it's very, you know, theologically [14:38] loaded, but but I'm I'm happy to get [14:40] into it because like I said earlier in [14:43] this conversation, I believe after [14:45] studying this and I and I still I'm [14:47] still considerate consider myself a [14:49] student, but I've come to the conclusion [14:51] that the Bible is completely [14:52] unambiguous. Completely unamiguous. And [14:55] so we need to dispel the fog by helping [14:57] people see from a hermeneutical [14:59] standpoint and see that we're not the [15:01] only ones. For hundreds of years, 200 [15:04] years before dispensationalism, it needs [15:06] to be said 200 years before [15:09] dispensationalism, they already [15:11] articulated a type of Christian Zionism. [15:14] We used to call Christian [15:15] restorationism, which believed in the [15:17] physical return of the Jewish people to [15:20] their ancestral land. That is Christian [15:22] Zionism. Man, I'll I'll leave it there [15:24] in case I've said too much. [15:26] >> No, I think it's really it's really [15:27] quite quite fascinating to your point [15:29] that there's been sort of two distinct [15:32] categories throughout church history. [15:34] That's an important bit of context [15:36] because it does, I think, illustrate why [15:39] the confusion today sometimes when we [15:42] ask questions about do you support [15:43] Israel or not? Well, okay, which which [15:47] category of Israel are we talking about? [15:48] There is a there is a physical and there [15:51] is a spiritual. And if scripture speaks [15:54] about both of them in slightly distinct [15:56] ways, then understanding what the Bible [15:58] expects of us in relationship to both of [16:01] those, the the literal and the spiritual [16:02] Israel is is important, but requires you [16:04] to to know that there is a distinction [16:06] between the two and to be able to [16:07] identify it. That's really key. I think [16:10] we're going to get deep into some other [16:12] stuff that relates to this in later [16:14] episodes, Jesse, just to sort of tease [16:16] everyone a little bit. I mean, we're [16:18] going to do an entire episode on [16:19] replacement theology because I think [16:21] that is part of where this two category [16:25] framework becomes really interesting in [16:27] terms of its application. How do you [16:28] think about the promises that were given [16:31] to Israel? How do you think about the [16:33] yeah dominant theological framework for [16:35] many centuries was that the the church [16:37] had superseded Israel and and that many [16:39] of the promises that Israel was given in [16:41] the Old Testament were no longer [16:43] applicable to them. Superessionism is [16:46] another name for this this framework. So [16:48] there's a lot there that I think we we [16:50] can and we will get into. [16:52] >> I don't want to I don't want to spoil [16:53] too much. So I'm gonna I'm move on from [16:55] that. But last thing I want to note, [16:56] Jesse, is that I think one of the things [16:59] that I did hear you mention was this [17:02] idea of Christian Zionism predating [17:04] dispensationalism. And why is why is [17:06] that significant? I think one of the [17:08] things that I've learned over the past [17:09] couple years is that the diversity of [17:12] the Christian Zionist movement is so [17:14] much broader than I I realized [17:16] previously and I think a lot of young [17:18] people do. I think what's interesting is [17:21] you you sort of have and if if you [17:23] listen to some of the the critics of [17:25] Christian Zionism or people who support [17:26] Israel and the Jewish people today, [17:27] unfortunately [17:29] they kind of use dispensationalism as [17:31] sort of a sledgehammer and say, you [17:32] know, you only believe that because [17:34] you're dispensationalist and if you're a [17:35] dispensationalist, you must be a [17:37] heretic. And we're going to get more [17:38] into this in future episodes as well, of [17:41] course, the different esqueological [17:42] frameworks and and whatnot, but I think [17:45] a that's just incredibly reductionistic. [17:48] Yeah, [17:48] >> Christian Zionism is much more diverse [17:50] than that and B [17:52] >> it's not a good faith I think engagement [17:54] with the the issues to just ignore so [17:58] much history to ignore the the roots of [18:02] where we get things like [18:04] dispensationalism you know it is rooted [18:06] in the same place that many other [18:08] Christian Zionist frameworks are rooted [18:09] but that's ultimately in in large part [18:11] the reformation but also theological [18:14] frameworks that predate even that so so [18:16] much for us to unpack really looking [18:17] forward to all that. But I do think it's [18:19] it's good to just put our cards on the [18:22] table now and say not every Christian [18:23] Zionist is a dispensationalist. Not [18:26] every dispensationalist is a Christian [18:27] Zionist. [18:28] >> Yeah, it's true. Actually, [18:30] >> that that I think is also an important [18:31] point to make that it's [18:33] >> these are not synonymous terms [18:35] >> and we've got a bit of a complexity to [18:37] unpack over the next few weeks. [18:40] >> No, I appreciate this. you're you're [18:42] 100% correct. And I think it's it's [18:46] really reduced the conversation to to [18:49] almost not because what what they're [18:51] trying to accuse you of of supposedly [18:54] being inspired by or informed by [18:56] dispensationalism is that you somehow [18:58] are theologically biased. And and even, [19:00] you know, they even go much farther than [19:02] that. They would say, "Oh, you're [19:03] ignorant. You don't know how to study [19:04] the Bible." But for me, this is personal [19:07] because I grew up dispensationalist. And [19:10] before Israel was even a question to me, [19:12] solar scriptor became one. You know, [19:15] salvation by grace became one because I [19:18] was coming I was coming out of a [19:20] particular context in my faith journey [19:22] where I just assumed that everything [19:24] that was being taught in the pulpit was [19:26] true, right? Until I went to seminary, I [19:29] was given the tools to to to really [19:31] study the Bible for myself. And and it [19:34] was during that journey that I've [19:36] switched from a dispensationalist and [19:39] and even like sort of general Baptist [19:42] conviction to a reformed Baptist, right? [19:44] So when I when and this was before even [19:47] Israel once I get to the Israel [19:49] question, right, this became personal [19:52] because there was a part of me that [19:54] still believed that God somehow has not [19:57] given up on Israel. it because like I [20:00] said, it wasn't until that point that I [20:01] started challenging myself about this [20:03] particular question and I was [20:05] disappointed in the first few reads that [20:07] I've read from modern reform thinkers [20:10] regarding this issue because often times [20:13] they they even maybe not intentional but [20:16] they kind of lean towards more of a [20:18] political narrative than a biblical [20:20] biblical one. But then when I hit the [20:21] second generation of reformers, like I [20:23] said, sear early 1700s, late 1600s, you [20:27] get guys like William Perkins [20:29] articulating that God has not abandoned [20:32] his people and and that he will continue [20:34] to refer. I I noted his his quote here [20:37] and Thomas Drakes both well Thomas Drake [20:40] and was a disciple of the Puritan [20:42] William Perkins. So he was in late 1800s [20:44] but used Romans 11 on biblical [20:47] prophecies to argue that Jesus would not [20:49] come again until the dispersed Jews [20:52] generally converted to Christianity and [20:54] then in the meantime he said would be [20:56] temporarily restored into their own [20:59] country rebuild Jerusalem and have a [21:02] most reformed and flourishing church and [21:05] commonwealth. Henry Finch, a member of [21:08] the parliament and strong advocate of [21:10] the Puritan causes says regarding [21:13] promises and the gentile church where [21:15] Israel, Judah, Zion, Jerusalem are named [21:18] in this argument, "The Holy Ghost [21:20] meaneth, not the spiritual Israel or [21:22] church of God collected of the Gentiles, [21:24] nor the Jews and Gentiles both, for each [21:26] of these have their promises severally [21:29] and apart, but Israel properly descended [21:31] out of Jacob's loin, understanding that [21:34] they were promises that were particular [21:37] to the literal descendants of Jacob of [21:40] Abraham and this was not from a [21:42] theological bias but it was from on the [21:44] basis of solos scriptorera that the [21:47] Bible is the ultimate authority and it [21:49] is because it is divinely inspired by [21:51] God. Therefore, God spoke clearly and we [21:54] as rational human beings can understand [21:56] what he said, when he said it, where he [21:59] said it. And once we establish that, we [22:01] do the theology, but we have to respect [22:04] the original intent of God's word when [22:07] he spoke it, to whom he spoke it, and [22:09] how he spoke it. You know, we can get [22:11] into that. It relates a lot to how we [22:14] understand even the Abrahamic covenant, [22:16] the nature of the Abrahamic covenant, [22:18] but we don't have to get into that now. [22:19] But uh but it's connected to that very [22:22] same conversation. [22:23] >> Don't worry, Jesse. We're we're going to [22:25] we're going to get to it. We've got a [22:26] full season ahead of us. I know there's [22:28] lots of stuff that we're excited to [22:30] unpack. [22:31] >> Told you I was going to come out [22:32] swinging, man. [22:33] >> Yeah. No, if you're listening to this [22:34] and not watching it on YouTube, Jesse's [22:36] over here, fists up. He's ready to go. [22:38] >> Thank you for listening so far. We'll be [22:40] right back after a quick word from this [22:42] episode sponsor. This episode is [22:44] sponsored by the Public Interest [22:45] Fellowship, which aims to enrich the [22:47] political and cultural life of the [22:49] United States through talent [22:50] development. Applications are now open [22:52] for the Public Interest Fellowship's [22:54] 2-year flagship fellowship. This program [22:57] for new and recent graduates provides a [22:59] unique combination of work and study [23:01] designed to advance fellows pursuit of [23:02] careers devoted to the public interest. [23:04] In the show notes, you can find a link [23:06] with more information on how to apply. [23:08] And now back to the show. The the other [23:10] thing I wanted to ask you about Jesse [23:12] and this is a question I think I also [23:14] hear a lot and it makes sense just just [23:16] for some context Jesse. So people will [23:18] often approach and say okay who who are [23:21] the Jewish people in relation to the [23:24] people of Israel in the Bible. And part [23:26] of the confusion is that you really hear [23:29] two different terms used that seem like [23:31] they apply to the same group of people [23:33] but people sometimes are wondering are [23:35] these actually the same people? In the [23:36] Old Testament, you know, you you hear [23:38] about the Hebrews, the Israelites, the [23:41] nation of Israel, sons of Abraham, [23:42] Isaac, and Jacob, whatever, whatever [23:43] term you want to use. In the New [23:45] Testament, you don't really hear those [23:47] terms used, at least nearly as often. [23:49] They're they're much less frequently [23:51] used, and you start to hear terms like [23:54] Jew, Jewish people. This Jew, Gentile [23:57] divide becomes a much more prominent set [23:59] of labels that's used throughout a lot [24:01] of the New Testament. So the question [24:03] for you is are these terms that are used [24:06] in the Old Testament and this term used [24:08] in the New Testament Jew referring to [24:10] the same group of people? [24:11] >> Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It's [24:13] referring in particular is referring to [24:15] the tribe of Judah and Benjamin. The the [24:17] the tribes that actually returned from [24:19] the exile. Um you know there were 10 [24:21] tribes that never returned, right? And [24:23] those who lived in Judea, right, were [24:26] referred to as Jewish. And so those same [24:29] people were the same people that were [24:30] dispersed by the Romans after the [24:32] destruction of the temple all over the [24:34] Roman Empire. That's how they got to [24:35] Europe. Right? That's how we have [24:37] Ashkanazi Jewish individuals and safari [24:40] Jewish individuals because of the [24:42] dispersion that happened. Although there [24:44] was a small minority that still [24:46] maintained presence in the region, but [24:48] but that's that's how they got there. [24:50] Now, how do we still trace them? Well, [24:52] you can still trace them based on their [24:55] preserved practices. They've never [24:56] stopped practicing their faith, never [24:59] stopped practicing their culture. And we [25:01] can tell just by the history of [25:03] persecution because they've been [25:05] persecuted by the very fact of [25:06] practicing Judaism, guys. So, you know, [25:09] like you don't even have to, you know, [25:11] think so hard on it. Just just look at [25:14] from the very first point that they've [25:15] been dispersed and every single time [25:17] they've been continually dispersed from [25:19] every other nation after that. So it's [25:21] very easy to trace the Jewish people [25:23] historically and and based on the [25:25] tradition of course throughout those [25:27] years there have been Jewish members [25:29] that have mixed with other races right [25:31] and and then you you have there you know [25:34] the Jewish people are so diverse today [25:36] you have Jews who are who are not even [25:38] practicing Judaism but are still you [25:40] know considered Jew ethnically or [25:42] culturally and and and many of them as a [25:44] result and I can say this in from a from [25:46] a certain perspective that I understand [25:48] because I'm a Latino who grew up in the [25:50] us and I understand kind of what happens [25:52] after 2, three, four, five generations [25:55] of Latinos who grow up in the a [25:58] different country from where their [25:59] parents or their original ancestors came [26:01] from. You become American. You, you [26:04] know, some of them don't even speak [26:05] Spanish anymore, right? So, and they [26:07] have no connection to those to those [26:10] roots. And so, that obviously [26:12] sociologically happened to the Jewish [26:14] people having to live in the diaspora [26:17] for 2,000, right? and and they [26:19] themselves have had to wrestle with [26:21] their own identity, you know, oftent [26:22] times. And the very story of political [26:25] Zionism is connected to that. It's [26:27] connected to this idea that the Jewish [26:29] people kind of gave up on the idea that [26:32] they can integrate into any society [26:35] easily and be accepted by any society, [26:38] right? they and uh theodore Herzel was [26:40] like the most prominent voice on [26:42] cultural assimilation basically making [26:45] the argument hey you want to stop [26:46] anti-semitism stop being Jewish if [26:49] you're French you're French if you're [26:50] German you're German but that sha that [26:52] that concept that idea became shattered [26:55] after the the story of the young French [26:57] soldier um whose names escaped me at the [27:00] moment but was falsely accused of [27:02] betraying the state and was thrown into [27:05] jail for 5 years until his accus accuser [27:08] came out confessing that this was all on [27:11] the basis that he was Jewish. So Theodor [27:13] Herzel looks at this story, he's like, [27:15] "This is my perfect example of a Jewish [27:18] person fully assimilated into a country, [27:21] serving his country faithfully, right? [27:23] He speaks French. He is French in every [27:26] single way. And still that wasn't [27:28] enough." And so ultimately they came to [27:30] the conclusion that there's only one way [27:32] for us to stay alive and not be you know [27:36] uh susceptible to the recurring [27:40] historical scenario where they get expo [27:42] expelled again and persecuted and that [27:44] you know Israel comes about as a nation [27:47] state today that exists for that very [27:49] purpose. So the Jewish people have a [27:51] home among the nations. So, [27:52] >> it's it's interesting. I think a couple [27:55] couple threads that you've just [27:56] mentioned, historical threads. I want to [27:58] pull on them briefly and and just unpack [28:00] them a little bit because I think [28:01] there's some really interesting history [28:02] there. One, I think the what I find [28:05] deeply ironic in many ways is that the [28:08] Jewish community or Jewish part of the [28:11] diaspora that fled to Europe as opposed [28:14] to other parts of the world like the [28:15] Middle East, North Africa especially, [28:17] large communities, some even in East [28:19] Asia. It's pretty remarkable. The the [28:21] community in Europe maintained [28:23] religiosity for a very long time, but [28:26] also did not to the degree same degree [28:29] that many of the communities in the [28:31] Middle East, North Africa did. And the [28:33] two of the factors that seem to be [28:35] contributing to that or two reasons why [28:37] is that from a from a religious [28:40] standpoint throughout church history, [28:42] they were very very very insistent that [28:45] in order to be accepted, you had to [28:47] convert. Forced conversions were a major [28:49] part of Jewish Christian relations [28:51] particularly through the medieval [28:52] period. [28:54] >> So a Jewish person could maintain their [28:56] Jewish culture and ethnicity to a degree [28:58] but religiously had to convert or being [29:01] risk being expelled. You know the [29:02] Spanish Inquisition there was a [29:04] >> multiple examples but the Spanish [29:05] acquisition being a famous example of [29:07] mass expulsions. The other thing that [29:10] was a little bit different between the [29:11] European experience and the experience [29:13] of the Middle East ironically was the [29:15] the Enlightenment. you know, in order to [29:17] belong, you didn't necessarily have to [29:18] convert to Christianity, but you had to [29:20] basically abandon religion in general [29:22] and adopt a more secular view of the [29:24] world in order to fit in as a minority. [29:27] And obviously that had that had [29:29] consequences when a minority failed to [29:32] fit in well enough or to abandon enough [29:34] of what made them distinct. The Alfa [29:36] Drifus case that you referenced, you [29:38] know, the French soldier being falsely [29:40] accused, great example of this. French [29:41] secularism was a great example of the [29:44] you know the goals of the enlightenment [29:46] and the consequences that they had for [29:48] people of faith in in Europe. In [29:50] contrast, I mean people across the [29:52] Middle East are you mentioned these lost [29:54] tribes. I mean it seems like they are [29:56] they're returning now. It's remarkable. [29:58] Of course the the two tribes that [30:00] returned after certain periods of exile, [30:02] Judah and Benjamin, you're right. Those [30:04] are the the two major tribes. But now [30:06] there are claims that they're finding, [30:08] you know, lost tribes of Dan or Manasha [30:10] or whatever. in far-flung corners of the [30:12] earth. And what to your point, one of [30:13] the reasons why they they're confident [30:15] that these are the lost tribes is [30:17] because they've been basically off the [30:19] grid for centuries without hardly any [30:21] contact with the outside world. No one [30:23] to teach them how to practice Judaism. [30:24] And they're practicing a form of Jewish [30:26] religion that is basically second temple [30:28] Judaism, which is remarkable. I mean, [30:30] it's [30:31] >> Ethiopian Jews, I think, are really [30:33] great example of this. It's crazy what [30:35] they found when they found the Ethiopian [30:36] Jewish community. So there's a lot there [30:38] that's really really quite interesting. [30:40] I think last thing I want to note, I [30:42] mean a common question that we get is [30:43] and I think actually this is also [30:45] something we see a lot in the online [30:47] discourse about the Jewish people days. [30:49] Are they like can you prove that they're [30:51] the same people as the biblical [30:52] Israelites genetically speaking? That [30:54] one's trickier. We were talking about [30:55] this a bit earlier, Jesse. I think I [30:57] mean it seems like the answer is it's [30:59] it's very very difficult to trace it [31:01] back to a single person like Abraham [31:03] which is often the standard that the [31:04] Jewish people are held to. In order to [31:06] prove your credentials you have to be [31:07] able to prove you have Abraham's DNA and [31:09] that's [31:10] >> remarkably difficult to do. But on the [31:12] other other hand even European Jews can [31:15] prove that they have roots like their [31:17] genetic roots are in the Middle East. [31:18] They're from the Levant the land of the [31:21] Bible. [31:21] >> Exactly. regardless of how much time [31:23] they spend in Europe. You can't get rid [31:24] of that DNA that is present, the [31:26] physical evidence of their roots in the [31:28] Middle East. So, I don't know if you [31:29] want to expound on that, Jesse, or add [31:31] anything, but I think that's also a [31:32] really interesting angle to this this [31:34] issue. [31:34] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it it's [31:36] important because I I was kind of [31:38] mentioning earlier off off camera, it [31:41] you know, often times this this question [31:43] is is really asked for silly reasons. [31:47] You you saw this in the case with the [31:49] Tucker and and Huckabe interview where [31:52] Tucker insisted, can you prove that the [31:54] Jewish people are descendants of [31:55] Abraham? It's a silly question. Why? [31:57] Because if if Huckabe would have in turn [31:59] asked him the same question, can you [32:01] prove otherwise? He can't prove it, [32:03] right? There is no single is Israelite [32:05] gene, right? Ancient Israelites were [32:08] genetically similar to neighboring [32:10] Levventine people. So DNA alone is not [32:13] going to neatly distinguish an Israelite [32:16] from every Canaanite, Phoenician, [32:17] Moabitete or any other nearby population [32:20] and much less right a specific Abrahamic [32:23] you know Abrahamic jeans. [32:24] >> Well Abraham was a calian I mean what do [32:26] you expect [32:26] >> correct? So, so this is where I mean the [32:29] question really it becomes silly to [32:32] start with to the premise, right? Why [32:34] why is that even a why does why is that [32:36] the question you ask the ambassador of [32:38] the United States to Israel? It's uh you [32:40] know even if it was because he was a [32:42] pastor, it's still a silly question to [32:45] ask a a pastor, right? But that being [32:47] said, most major Jewish populations and [32:50] based on several studies I found [32:52] somewhere titled the genomewide [32:54] structure of the Jewish people published [32:55] at Nature magazine and also Abraham's [32:57] children in the genome era published in [32:59] the American Journal of Human Genetics [33:01] and they've determined that most major [33:03] Jewish populations retain a significant [33:06] Middle Eastern Levventine ancestral [33:08] component. And this has been found among [33:10] Ashkanazi, Safhardi, Mizrahi. Okay, you [33:14] mentioned them and Ashkanazi Jews are [33:16] actually a great example because they [33:18] often are the target of of many of these [33:20] questions and and attacks. Often they [33:22] even get accused of being Europeans and [33:24] not even being Jewish. But their [33:26] genetics actually reflect substantial [33:29] Levventine Middle Eastern ancestry. Even [33:31] if you see present European, which you [33:33] you are to expect of a population that's [33:35] been, you know, mixing with other [33:37] populations for several thousand years, [33:39] what's remarkable is that even after [33:41] 2,000 years, there's still a strong [33:43] substantial connection in their DNA to [33:45] the Levventine Middle Eastern ancestry. [33:47] If that doesn't prove to you that we're [33:50] talking about the same people today, [33:51] then I don't know what else can convince [33:53] you, right? I I think at at certain [33:55] point maybe we're not having a rational [33:57] conversation. I think it it's it's very [33:59] clearly demonstrated by the tradition [34:01] and the practices that they've preserved [34:03] throughout the years, their historical [34:04] connection to the the the Jewish people [34:07] and even their connection to, you know, [34:09] genetically to the population of that [34:11] era. [34:11] >> Yeah. No, it's a good point, Jesse. But [34:13] at a certain point, [34:15] this the science it will struggle to [34:17] meet the standard that people want it to [34:19] be held to if the standard is literally [34:21] can you trace it all the way back to [34:22] Abraham specifically? But if the science [34:25] is not good enough and it's pretty good, [34:28] then it does raise some questions about, [34:30] okay, but what kind of conversation are [34:31] we having? Is this a good faith [34:33] conversation? Is this a gotcha [34:35] conversation where you're trying to [34:36] prove a point, [34:37] >> make somebody look bad for not knowing [34:39] or being able to provide you the very [34:42] specific evidence that you're looking [34:44] for and it Yeah, I it's pretty revealing [34:46] I think how that conversation usually [34:49] plays out. The last last question I want [34:50] to ask you today, Jesse, and and we're [34:53] going to get into all kinds of stuff [34:54] over the next several weeks, but in in [34:56] spiritual terms, I think one of the [34:59] things that you and I have discussed as [35:00] well offline, and it's good to also, I [35:02] think, put on the table for listeners, [35:03] is this question of is the modern state [35:06] of Israel, meaning that the government [35:08] essentially, and the Jewish people the [35:11] same or or distinct in terms of how we [35:13] think about them and the way that the [35:15] Bible speaks about them? [35:16] >> Yeah. Politically, you could argue that [35:19] they're not the same because not all [35:20] members of the government of Israel are [35:22] Jewish. You have Muslims, you have [35:24] Christians, you have a variety of people [35:26] of different cultures and faiths who are [35:28] members of the government of Israel. And [35:31] among those you have Jews who are [35:33] members of course of that same [35:35] government. And and so to confuse the [35:37] two is is to you know it's not to make a [35:40] clear distinction between what Israel is [35:42] as a political entity which has changed [35:44] throughout time and you see that in the [35:46] Bible. They've been governed by judges. [35:48] They've been governed by kings. I don't [35:49] know how many with one hand. Can how [35:51] many good kings can you count with one [35:52] hand, right? And then they they've been [35:55] in exile. They've been out not as, you [35:57] know, a political entity, but just as a [35:59] historical people. And so for me the [36:02] political entity or government whether [36:05] it be a monarchy a modern state or a a [36:09] group of of judges it's it's [36:11] irrespective of you know who is the [36:14] Jewish people and and and biblically and [36:17] historically I would say the Jewish [36:19] people the Jewish people are the the the [36:22] people of Israel and the Jewish people [36:23] who are not only Jewish by ethnic and [36:26] culture but also religion and also [36:29] politically because they've always and [36:31] they they've always been and they've [36:33] never stopped seeing themselves as a [36:34] nation and you know they sailed the [36:36] Islam for many years in exile. That's [36:38] why we use those terms because they were [36:40] uprooted from their ancestral homeland [36:43] which was their the the home of their [36:45] nation. So that's where I, you know, [36:47] Tucker Carlson going back to him and and [36:50] I think he he created so much damage to [36:53] the conversation and and often times now [36:55] it's even less common to have a a good [36:58] good faith discussion about Israel [37:00] because he made it about you support [37:02] Israel, you support every political [37:04] decision that the government of Israel [37:05] makes. Not even the not even the Israeli [37:08] people agree with every single decision [37:09] that comes out of the government, right? [37:11] How could you force or box a Christian [37:15] into that category? You know, especially [37:18] American Christians who have no bone to [37:20] pick in terms of, you know, the [37:22] political life of the nation of Israel. [37:24] We just care that that the pe that the [37:26] Jewish people and the nation of Israel [37:28] has a right to exist in their historic [37:30] ancestral homeland. Yes. It starts from [37:33] a biblical conviction because I'm a [37:35] Christian. I see the world through those [37:37] through the lens of the Bible and I [37:39] believe that my faith has historical [37:41] implications and but I believe that that [37:45] has has great implications for the [37:47] world. It's great that Israel exists and [37:49] we've seen benefits that that the world [37:52] has been recipient of for the because of [37:55] because Israel exists from humanitarian [37:56] to technology to startups to all sorts [37:59] of investments across across the globe [38:02] happening because of positive and I see [38:04] it in I can tell you of examples in in [38:07] Latin America because I've I that that's [38:09] where I've focused most of my work and I [38:11] I can tell you example multiple examples [38:14] of how the state of Israel is involved [38:16] in many of the tragedies humanitarian [38:18] needs and commercial uh expansions and [38:20] growth that we see in that region. So, I [38:22] encourage everyone to really take a look [38:25] at what the scripture says. Don't react [38:27] impulsively. Don't don't don't fall to [38:29] those gotcha moments. Try to, you know, [38:32] just pause for a second and look at the [38:34] deep holes that actually exist in the [38:37] arguments. They can't they can't make an [38:38] argument apart from just looking at two [38:40] texts. Genesis 12:3, Galatians 6:16. But [38:43] it's not an exhaustive argument. It's [38:45] not what the Bible as a whole is [38:47] actually saying about not only the [38:49] Jewish people, the Gentile, God's [38:51] redemptive plan for humanity, etc. It [38:53] has all sorts of implications when we [38:55] start off on the wrong foot on this [38:57] subject in my opinion. [38:58] >> Yep. I agree. [38:59] >> Yeah. [38:59] >> I think one of the biggest challenges [39:01] about having conversations about Israel [39:03] today, Jesse, is there is a sense in [39:06] which you kind of you're the [39:08] conversation has been framed into two [39:10] competing poles essentially. Either you [39:13] think Israel can do no wrong and is [39:16] perfect and you essentially idolize it, [39:19] put on a pedestal or whatever, or you [39:21] think Israel can do nothing right and is [39:23] the source of all trouble and evil that [39:26] we experience today. And if you find [39:28] yourself somewhere in the middle, people [39:30] have a hard time accepting that and are [39:32] going to try to typ cast you into one of [39:34] the two extremes instead because they [39:37] don't have they don't have space for a [39:38] third category in terms of how you think [39:40] about Israel. So if you say something [39:42] critical of Israel, it's like, well, [39:43] you're an anti-semite. But if you defend [39:44] Israel against criticism, it's like, [39:46] well, you must be idolizing Israel and [39:48] obviously there's a middle ground here [39:50] that these extremes are not the only [39:52] options available to us in terms of how [39:53] we think biblically about these issues. [39:56] >> Yeah. [39:56] >> But unfortunately, that's kind of the [39:57] way the conversation is framed today. [39:59] So, we've got our work cut out for us, [40:01] but I really appreciate your your [40:04] thoughtfulness, Jesse, and your [40:06] enthusiasm for the subject, willingness [40:08] to undertake this project with us. I [40:10] want to I want to thank you for your [40:12] time today as we wrap this up. Also, we [40:14] should definitely thank Lindsay, our [40:16] producer, who's going to be doing all [40:18] the behind the scenes work to make the [40:20] season happen. Yeah, she's she's [40:21] awesome. In our next episode, just to [40:23] give you guys a sneak peek to those of [40:25] you listening, we're going to get right [40:25] to the good stuff. Equetology, the study [40:27] of end times. It's a big word with a [40:30] loaded loaded meaning behind it, and it [40:33] has a lot in terms of how Christians [40:35] historically have shaped their [40:36] perception of the Jewish people. So, [40:37] we're going to get right into some of [40:38] that stuff. For more episodes like this, [40:40] please of course subscribe to Discover [40:42] Your Roots. Wherever you get your [40:43] podcast, you'll get notifications where [40:45] the next episode drops. If you like this [40:47] podcast as well, we also always of [40:49] course appreciate it when you leave us [40:50] review, share with your friends, give it [40:52] a like, whatever works for you. And we [40:55] look forward to uh seeing you next next [40:57] time. Thanks everyone.
