Transcript [00:00] Dara: The rabbi who was hosting me at this synagogue picks me up at the airport and [00:04] says, I just need to tell you what you're walking into. [00:06] There was a threat against the Jewish day school in town. [00:09] The person was arrested last night. [00:11] We just found out about it this morning. [00:13] This was a person who was posting online about how he was going to murder the [00:17] children in the playground during the recess and then he was going to murder the [00:21] parents in the carpool line during the pickup. [00:23] And I'm like, wow, that's really horrible. [00:24] And my host is like, that's not the horrible part. [00:26] Who was this person? He was the school security guard. [00:33] Ben: This is The Honest Take, the show that goes past the headlines to find out [00:37] what's actually true about Israel and about the people covering it. [00:40] I'm Ben Chertoff, and my guest today is Dara Horn, novelist, essayist, and the [00:46] author of People Love Dead Jews, and now of a new book with a title she chose very [00:52] deliberately, The Final Solution to the Jewish Question: A Love Story for the [00:57] Living. Today, we're asking why the oldest lie in the world keeps showing up in a [01:03] new costume and what it would actually take for people to stop falling for it. [01:12] One thing before we start, if you're not already subscribed, take that two seconds [01:16] and fix that. And if you've been meaning to rate the show, today's a good day. [01:21] It moves the needle more than you'd think. [01:23] Alright, here's Dara. [01:27] On the evening of October 8, 2023, Dara Horn was in a synagogue in her New Jersey [01:33] town with 2,000 other Jews, most of them in tears. [01:38] A lot of people in that room were about to learn things about their friends, their [01:43] colleagues, and their kids' schools that they never imagined. [01:47] Dara already knew. A couple of years earlier, she'd published People Love Dead [01:53] Jews. And afterward, it felt like every Jew in America with a story had found her. [01:58] The vandalism, the threats, the slur from a boss or a teacher, the incidents that [02:04] never became a headline because nobody was killed. [02:07] One of her sisters started calling her the antisemitism Lorax, the little figure [02:12] from Dr. Seuss shouting into the woods while the trees keep coming down. [02:17] So October 8th didn't shock her, but the speed of it did and how organized it was. [02:22] Her new book is an attempt to explain why. [02:25] And her answer is that we've been fighting the wrong thing. [02:29] We treat antisemitism as a prejudice, something you cure with empathy, by [02:35] getting people to know us better. [02:36] She thinks it works more like a con. [02:39] It's a story people tell to get power or to keep it, and it's always tailored to [02:44] its audience. Whatever a society holds sacred, the Jews are the ones wrecking it. [02:49] You don't beat a con by being more likable. [02:54] You beat it by showing people who's running it and what they get out of it. [02:59] We get into what she saw from inside Harvard's antisemitism advisory group [03:03] after October 7th, the UN conference in Durban in 2001, where crowds were already [03:09] chanting what you hear on campus today. [03:11] The week a fact-checker asked her to prove pogroms from a century ago, while the [03:16] same paper put Hamas' account of a hospital strike in a banner headline. [03:21] And what happens when you answer a heckler as if they actually meant the question? [03:27] And why she thinks most of the people who stay quiet don't need more facts. [03:31] They need to find out how many people are already standing behind them. [03:36] Dara Horn, welcome to The Honest Take. [03:38] Dara: Thank you for having me. [03:39] Ben: So I want to go back to October 8th and the evening of October 8th, 2023. [03:44] You talk about it in your new book that you were in a synagogue in New Jersey with [03:50] 2,000 people in tears. And you wrote that none of you [03:57] knew how much your friends and neighbors would turn on you. [04:00] And I think that's the experience that most of us had. [04:03] But what did you know that night? [04:06] And what was the first thing that kind of clued [04:09] you into that this was going to be different? [04:14] Dara: Um, yes. So that night there was a community gathering where I live. [04:17] Um, it was sort of like a wide Jewish community gathering. [04:21] It was about 2 000 people um right after the end of the holiday, um you know which [04:27] for us is was ended that later that night on October 8th. Um [04:34] and there there were some the they were able to get some state representatives to [04:38] come. Um so there were you know and there were people from you know non-Jewish [04:42] leaders who came to that event, but really it was the Jewish community. [04:45] And, you know, in my local community, I didn't really see the chaos [04:51] emerge until later, but it immediately was obvious from, uh I'm [04:58] was there was a group that very quickly formed the Harvard Jewish Alumni Alliance [05:03] that was, and and because I'm an alum and I had affiliation with the university, you [05:08] know, over many years, I had heard immediately about these, you know, [05:12] 30-something Harvard student groups that had, you know, put out the statement that, [05:18] you know, Israel was responsible for all the violence. [05:20] And it was basically a celebration of October 7th massacre. [05:25] That actually went out apparently on October 7th. [05:28] They were, you know, type A people over there ahead of the curve. [05:33] So, you know, that was already happening. [05:36] I will say, though, you know, I had a previous book that I had published in 2021 [05:42] called People Love Dead Jews that, you know, really was, I hadn't seen it as a [05:47] book about antisemitism. I had seen it as a book about really the role that Jewish [05:51] history plays in a non-Jewish imagination. [05:53] But it really had, it became this kind of touchstone in the Jewish community before [05:59] October 7th. [06:00] And I already was being invited to speak in different places about that book. [06:05] And I already was seeing in terms of the college and things, it was already [06:10] happening long before that. I mean, I remember this even from 20 years before [06:15] that. But I will tell you that there's just one sort of piquant example of [06:21] this. I don't know if that's the right word. [06:22] I will tell you just, you know, one example that sort of encapsulates it all. [06:27] I went to speak at a college that there's no need to name it because they all do [06:32] this now. It was UC Santa Cruz. [06:35] I spoke there in 2022 and they had tried to pass some resolution, [06:41] you know, against antisemitism in their student [06:44] government and the resolution had failed. [06:47] And I guess that having decided that they weren't against antisemitism, they decided [06:51] they were in favor of antisemitism because a few days before I came to give my talk, [06:55] um they hit their the dorms were covered in swastikas and, you know, [07:01] someone had vandalized these the the vandalized the college with swastikas. [07:05] And I they cleaned them up before I got there. [07:08] And I remember the professor who was hosting me there was telling me about this [07:14] and told me, you know, and I asked this professor, you know, do you think this was [07:19] done by students or was it, you know, people from the town? [07:22] And she said, oh, no, we definitely think it was students. [07:24] And I said, why would you think this? [07:25] And I can't even say this without laughing. [07:27] She says, because we found the empty spray paint cans in the recycling bins. [07:34] It's like, kill the Jews, save the turtles. Right. [07:37] Ben: Save the environment. [07:39] Dara: Yeah. I mean, it's the ethos of Greta Thunberg, right? [07:41] I mean, and that was, I mean, I remember speaking at another school where, you [07:46] know, they showed videos of the student demonstrations chanting globalizing the [07:51] intifada. I mean, all this stuff was already happening. [07:54] I mean, you can trace this much, much further back. [07:56] But I sort of already had a front row seat to that before October 8th. [08:01] And I already had many people coming to me about this issue and inviting me to speak [08:07] and asking me for advice about it. [08:09] And what happened after October 8th for me was that it became institutionalized, [08:14] most notably that it was maybe about a week or two after [08:20] October 8th that I was recruited to participate in this antisemitism [08:26] advisory group for the now former president of Harvard, who didn't really [08:32] take a lot of our advice in the end. [08:34] Ben: I want to get into that in a little bit. [08:38] Your sister had described you as the antisemitism Lorax, which is a great [08:44] reference that you include in the book. [08:47] You know, I have to imagine you're getting inundated with all these experiences from [08:52] the Jewish community, especially the diaspora community, and all this [08:56] recounting of awful experiences. [09:00] Yeah. How did you how did you take that home and [09:06] process that? How did you not let that just drive you crazy? [09:12] Dara: I mean, I would dispute that it didn't drive me crazy. [09:15] Ben: OK. [09:16] Dara: Yeah, I think it drove me crazy. [09:17] I think my family will tell you that that was part of my emergent antisemitism [09:22] Lorax, as my sister called me. Um, yeah, I I got this name because [09:27] what what happened it was after it was really after the last book was published [09:32] in 2021. It was I was not prepared for this at all. [09:35] That suddenly, it was like every Jew in America is coming to me with their [09:40] horrifying experiences, and in a lot of instances asking me for help. [09:46] And I just you know felt completely powerless. [09:50] I was not prepared for this at all. [09:52] Um I you know wasn't prepared emotionally for this. [09:56] I mean, this is a very difficult thing when suddenly everyone is telling you your [10:00] horror stories. I mean, I'm not a therapist. [10:01] You know I'm not like trained to like take on other people's horror stories. [10:04] Ben: The first section of your book is just this like slow build of of [10:10] horror stories, and it's it's it's tough to read. [10:13] Dara: Exactly. I mean, and just to clarify for your audience the kind of things that [10:16] I'm talking about. Um you know these were things like I remember, and again, this is [10:22] before October 7th. Um I remember going to uh I was invited to speak at a synagogue [10:27] in Ohio, and I remember that the rabbi who was hosting me at the synagogue picks me [10:34] up the airport and says, I just need to tell you what you're walking into. [10:37] There was a threat against the Jewish day school in town. [10:41] Um they you know there was uh the person was arrested last night. [10:45] We just found out about it this morning. [10:46] This was a person who was posting online about how he was going to murder the [10:51] children in the playground during the recess, and then he was going to murder [10:55] the parents in the carpool line during the pickup. [10:57] He had this plan. He was posting about it. [10:59] And I'm like, wow, that's really horrible. [11:01] And my host is like, that's not the horrible part. [11:05] What's the horrible part? Who was this person? [11:07] He was the school security guard. [11:10] So thankfully, this person's now in prison. [11:12] But, you know, I mean, that's the kind a story that doesn't make national news [11:16] because no one's dead, thankfully. [11:18] But, you know, I mean, there was just like hundreds of stories like that of, you [11:23] know, all the things that don't get classified as a hate crime. [11:25] You know, I was, you know, my grandfather was in the Jewish cemetery and somebody [11:29] shot at him. You know, it's like everybody's a lone wolf, right? [11:33] I mean, it's sort of, you know, oh, it's a lone wolf. [11:35] It's like we can't determine the source of this, [11:37] you know, like who knows what the motive is. [11:39] Ben: Motive's unclear. [11:40] Dara: Yes, it's totally unclear. [11:42] Yes, totally unclear. Um I mean, and just like hundreds and hundreds of these [11:47] incidents. And you know and then, of course, you know things that didn't [11:49] involve a gun or a knife, um you know but um you know just people constantly being [11:55] insulted by their bosses at work, by their teachers at school, um you know being [11:59] constantly invalidated, um you know vandalism, all kinds of harassment. [12:04] I mean and these were [12:07] you know and coming from authority figures and coming from people they respected. [12:11] And, you know, it was just piling up on me. [12:17] And, you know, I got this role, as my sister said, as the Lorax, where it's [12:21] like, you know, I felt about as effective as the Lorax because, you know, it's like, [12:25] you know, I'm shouting, I speak for the trees. [12:27] And then it's like, you know, it doesn't matter. [12:28] The guy's mowing the forest down. [12:30] It really felt that way to me. And, you know, this was, I was living in the world, [12:36] I think a lot of people woke up on, in the Jewish community, woke up on October 8th [12:39] and suddenly discovered this. You know, [12:42] they were then shocked when it was, you know, [12:46] people were invalidating what they were experiencing. [12:49] Their friends are all, you know, out on October 8th, you know, shouting globalize [12:55] the intifada or whatever. Hamas is the resistance, fill in the blank, whatever [12:59] crazy slogans. And these were people who they work with and people they're friends [13:04] with and people they're married to. [13:05] And, you know, we're all really shocked by this. [13:08] I mean, I guess I had the advantage of not being shocked because I had sort of been [13:13] living in that world already for a few years prior to that. [13:18] But the speed and the organization of that was still very shocking. [13:23] Ben: What do you think we missed the October 8th Jews, as Bret Stephens calls [13:28] us? What did we miss in the lead up that you were able to see? [13:35] Dara: I mean, look, this is a lead up. [13:36] It wasn't just, look, I had the front row seat for it for the first few years. [13:40] Obviously, you know, people who are at an outlet like yours were following these [13:45] things for much, much longer. [13:49] What people missed was they thought it was about Israel. [13:53] I honestly think that's what it is because I even remember this, you know, because, [13:58] you know, I was in a university setting. [13:59] I have, you know, I remember being in college and in my doctorate in, you know, [14:05] I have a doctorate from Harvard that I was earned in the early 2000s. [14:08] So I was in graduate school during the Second Intifada. [14:11] And, you know, seeing all of that was the beginning of, you know, all of the sort [14:16] of, you know, boycott, divestment and sanctions movement. [14:18] And, you know, Israel apartheid week, they started doing every week. [14:22] That started with the Second Intifada. [14:24] What I thought was, it was so immediately obvious, first of all, that it was [14:27] triggered by the success of these overseas foreign terrorist [14:33] organizations in killing Jews. Like, that was what was triggering it, was the [14:38] success, right? I mean, that was what was interesting to me about October 8th, [14:43] right, is that this was, it was triggered by the success of killing Jews, and that [14:49] was the same thing with the Second Intifada. [14:50] And I remembered this. You know I'm old enough to remember the Second Intifada, [14:54] which isn't true for these college students. [14:56] Um and you know I remembered that was exactly what you know what what created [15:02] what galvanized this you know this hate movement um because it's a hate movement. [15:07] It was galvanized by that. So, what people missed, I think was that and I remember [15:11] this from you know when I was in graduate school and, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't [15:15] writing about this topic at the time. [15:17] Um, I had only wrote about this starting in 2021. [15:19] I was writing novels about Jewish life. [15:22] I, I think what people missed was that they, they were, I think people were [15:28] compartmentalizing it and thinking that it was quote about Israel. [15:33] They actually genuinely thought it was about Israel. [15:38] And I think that they were shocked when it turned out that it wasn't. [15:41] And I think that there are a lot of people who are still deluding themselves into [15:45] thinking that this is about Israel. [15:47] And I mean I could say more about that. [15:49] Ben: Yeah, I mean, you dig under the surface a little bit and the antisemitism. [15:54] You write about Durban, for instance, which the UN just celebrated a couple of [15:59] days ago. Yeah, the 25th anniversary of the Durban conference. [16:03] And, you know, that was days after the Sbarro pizza bombing [16:09] in 2001 during the Second Intifada. [16:14] And, you know, there are, what is it, Protocols of the Elders of Zion on sale [16:20] and being handed out. One of the things that I found really... [16:23] Dara: The posters of Hitler everywhere, which of course turned out to be funded by [16:26] the Bin Laden family. [16:28] Ben: Fascinating. Yeah that is that's a that's a factoid I didn't know about. [16:32] Dara: Yeah, the the there were posters all over. [16:35] The and so I mean I'm guessing a lot of your listeners [16:37] know what we're talking about with the Durban conference. [16:39] This was a the the UN world conference against Racism, Xenophobia, and Related [16:45] Intolerance in Durban, South Africa in the end of the summer of 2001 um which this [16:52] um as I I documented in the book but I'm certainly not the first person to document [16:56] this. I'm trying on other sources. [16:57] Um, this uh conference was captured by the Iranian regime. [17:01] Um, they managed to take control of the Asia Pacific uh regional conference and [17:08] hold it in Tehran, where they barred all Israeli and Jewish delegates from [17:12] attending by not giving them visas and drafted their the entire you know decorate [17:17] you know draft of the declaration and action plan against racism, where suddenly [17:22] there's only one you know country in the entire world that is a racist, xenophobic, [17:26] genocidal apartheid state. [17:28] All the same slogans we're hearing now. [17:30] Um you and then when people got to the and that so, that was the Asia Pacific [17:35] conference, but then when people got to the main event in Durban, there it was [17:40] like 3,600 NGOs. Um and it's just wall-to-wall antisemitic hate fest. [17:46] I mean, literally posters of Hitler, which were produced by something that was [17:51] called the Islamic Propagation Center in Durban, which was funded by $3 million [17:56] from the Bin Laden family. That's just one example. [18:00] You know, this was, I mean, there were, you know, Jewish delegates were forced out [18:04] of the venues. There was, you know, people would [18:07] rush the podiums when Jewish delegates would speak. [18:09] They would chant over them. Anytime a Jewish delegate would speak, everybody [18:13] would start chanting, free, free Palestine. [18:15] And I remember mentioning this actually to college students. [18:19] And they were like, wait a minute, they were doing that chant. [18:22] In 2001? I'm like, yeah yeah, yeah. [18:25] And calling Israel a genocidal state. [18:27] Ben: Genocidal state goes back to, I I think yeah it's the earliest is in the 70s [18:31] from the Soviets. Or [18:32] Dara: Right, right. Yeah post 67 go back to the Soviets. [18:35] Um you know they're then you know adopted by you know the Iranian regime. [18:40] So I mean these are very this stuff is so old. [18:43] And I mean you look at the Durban conference, and it's exactly all of that. [18:46] I mean it's and it's you know this um you know it's all the Nazi stuff. [18:50] People are drawing swastikas on the walls. [18:53] They're selling the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. [18:55] And I mean, it's just this hate fest. [18:57] And it's just this capture by these tyrannical regimes. [19:00] And, you know, I mean, it's amazing because this conference happened [19:07] the week before September 11th. [19:09] And, you know, the entire world had gathered in Durban to announce that there [19:13] is one, you know, there's one genocidal, apartheid, colonialist, racist state in [19:18] the world. And it's Israel. It's the only country mentioned in a 70-page document. [19:24] And obviously, I mean, it's very transparent because, you know, every [19:28] dictatorship on the planet is very delighted to not be in this document and [19:31] to sign on the dotted line. And, of course, what they then have done is also [19:35] they've left all of these NGOs bereft of any ability to, you know, they [19:41] have nothing to say then, you know, four days later when, you know, these jihadi [19:47] terrorists take down the World Trade Center. [19:50] Ben: One of the things that you wrote about in your book that really kind of hit [19:54] me was about your kids' generation and that the bomb threats and the swastikas [20:00] were, quote, expected and even boring. [20:05] And that your son, quote, hadn't been bothered by any of it. [20:09] I mean, it sounds really bleak. [20:11] And it also sounds kind of like there's some armor there, like there's a [20:15] resilience. Um like what what can we learn from from that generation? [20:21] Are they better equipped [20:22] Dara: To deal with this? I mean Unfortunately, they're not. [20:26] In fact, they fall for it more. [20:30] I mean to me, that's what was really striking. [20:32] I think that, yes, for my for sure for my children. [20:35] So I have four children um who are basically, I'm well, I would say they're [20:39] all teenagers. My oldest is now 21. [20:42] So 21 and then three teenagers. [20:45] I mean, you know, writing a book takes a long time and children age. But yeah, [20:51] my children definitely are seeing this all the time online. [20:56] You know, there's, it's just sort of become something that they, it's, you just [21:01] dismiss it. And it's amazing to me because, you know, anytime any of these [21:05] things had happened when I was growing up, you know, it was like a four alarm fire. [21:10] In the Jewish community. People would you know there'd be you know editorials [21:14] published, and there'd be community meetings, and you know there'd be somebody [21:17] would get fired, and you know there would be like this whole to-do. [21:20] And now, it's just sort of like cost of doing business. [21:24] Um you know I think that so and certainly online, there's just [21:30] this I think that for this part, you know for my children's generation, it is just [21:34] accepted that you're just going to be inundated with hate if you're publicly [21:38] Jewish online. Um and that is just you know that's just like you know the price [21:45] of doing business. It's like people just accept that. [21:47] When I say my son wasn't bothered by any of it, um yeah, not bothered by any of it, [21:51] so like when you said is there armor, I think that there's armor for like it takes [21:56] a lot more for something to be taken, certain you know for for people to take [22:00] something seriously um you know because the Overton window window has shifted so [22:05] much. Which I mean to me, this is very disturbing and terrifying, um but I don't [22:10] I don't think that they have more armor. [22:11] In terms I mean, maybe my personal children do, um but you know you have to [22:16] sort of have raised your children in a very particular way in order for them to [22:19] be prepared for this. [22:20] And most people are are blindsided by it. [22:25] So you know the part that I the the part that I see most obvious [22:31] is that you know there's this thing that um Ahad Ha'am um cultural Zionist leader [22:36] of the you know early you know about 100 years ago or more actually, he's you know [22:40] writing the 1890s. He writes about what he calls you know general agreement, and um [22:45] that there's just this accepted notion that the you know antisemitic lies are [22:50] accepted as truth by everyone. And it's like you're then forced to prove that you [22:56] don't eat babies, right? I mean, it's like, when did you stop beating your wife, [22:59] right? I mean, it's that you're put into this position. [23:01] And the way he put it was that he calls it um half solace he's like that at least [23:07] the Jews know that they don't eat babies, right? [23:11] It's like, at least my children know that, like, no, in fact, you know they don't [23:15] eat babies. But the problem is, I think that there are many people in the Jewish [23:18] community who don't recognize these lies that are coming at them, [23:25] um don't have that chatzi nechama, that half solace of knowing this. [23:30] And, you know, we're really not prepared for this. [23:33] And I think that there's a few reasons why that is, which I can unpack here if you [23:40] like. I don't know if we want to spend our time that way. [23:42] But I think that, and I'm working now with my new [23:45] nonprofit on completely changing that approach. [23:50] Ben: That I'm fascinated by. This explosion of the very vocal anti-Zionist [23:56] Jew. Like, where where did we go wrong there? [24:00] Dara: So, well, I mean, there's a different question to be talked about, you [24:03] know, the anti-Zionist Jews who are part of this movement. [24:08] You know, I'm going to I mean, I'll just very briefly just say that. [24:12] I mean, yes, there are Jews who are part of this movement because we are not a [24:16] tyrannical regime. You know, I mean, yeah, it's people are, you know, people are [24:21] like, oh, you know, how come the Jewish community is, you know, the other side is [24:25] so great at staying on message. [24:26] You know, why don't we, you know, like have more? [24:29] And I'm like, well, it's really easy to stay on message if like you kill the [24:32] people who are off message. [24:34] Like that's what they do in Iran. [24:35] Right. Like, you know, we're we didn't do that in the Jewish community. [24:39] Right. Like this is like, you know, and also like, you know, the whole ethos of [24:43] the Jewish community is diversity of opinion. [24:44] You know, I mean, it's a argument for the sake of heaven. [24:47] Like we never like, you know, it's like it's like Kafka said, you know, I barely [24:51] have anything in common with myself. [24:53] Right. I mean, this is the diversity of opinion is part of Jewish life. [24:55] Um, so that's one piece of it. And then another piece of it is that, um, the as [25:00] the journalist Benjamin Kerstein has put it, Jews who are anti-Zionist are [25:06] coming from positions of almost unfathomable privilege. [25:09] Yeah, almost unfathomable privilege. [25:12] Because, you know, you can sit in a ritzy dinner party in New York City [25:18] or at a seminar room at Harvard and talk about, like, well you know, [25:22] hypothetically, why don't we just open up the borders of Israel and see what [25:25] happens? You know, it's so wrong that they're, you know, policing their borders [25:28] and not letting anybody in. And why don't we open the borders and see what happens? [25:31] I'm like, if you're sitting in a bomb shelter, you know, in Israel, [25:36] you don't have the privilege of saying, gee, [25:38] let's just open the borders and see what happens. [25:42] Because you already saw that on October 7th and many other occasions before that. [25:47] So, yeah, so that's putting that over here. [25:49] But in terms of the, you know, what we have been, the way we've been teaching [25:54] this and where I think we can and where I am changing course, I think that there [26:00] is a way that we have tried to approach. [26:04] And this has less to do with within the Jewish community and more sort of like a [26:08] larger effort in certainly in the United states. [26:11] The effort toward fighting against bigotry has always been about building empathy. [26:18] Um, you know, like, oh, we need to get to know people better, right? [26:21] Like, oh, then you see that we're all the same. [26:22] And this is, like, something that's important, you know, certainly with the [26:26] history of race in America. Um, yeah, this is the way we tend to think about this. [26:31] And the way and and so the thing is that if you if you're if you're fighting [26:37] bigotry and bias, then it's true that your top priority is building empathy. [26:44] But antisemitism, as I understand it from, you know, from the way I'm [26:50] studying this and from this, like, very, very long historical record, [26:55] I don't think it's most effective to understand it as a bigotry or a bias. [27:00] I think it is much more effective to understand it as a lie. [27:04] And it is a lie that people use to gain or maintain power. [27:08] The lie is always the same. Jews are destroying what you value the most. [27:13] Jews are destroying what you value the most. [27:16] And the only thing that changes different historical periods, different settings, is [27:19] what you value the most. Um, so, you know, if you're in a capitalist society, Jews [27:23] are communists. If you're in a communist society, Jews are capitalists, right? [27:25] If you're a religious Christian then Jews killed Christ you know if you're a human [27:28] rights advocate you know the world's only Jewish state is the world's worst violator [27:32] of human rights. I mean, this is sort of like the constant, you know, if you're in [27:35] a racist society, Jews are race polluters. [27:37] If you're in an anti-racist society, Jews are racist, right? [27:40] I mean, this is very long history. [27:44] And to me, what's important about this formulation, and we teach this in my [27:48] curriculum in the Tell Institute, and I could say more about it. [27:50] I want to stay on your topic here about this idea of the lie. [27:54] The way we teach about this is teaching pattern recognition for this lie, because [27:59] I feel that's what's been eliminated by, let's say focusing on the Holocaust, for [28:03] example, eliminates pattern recognition. [28:05] Here you see the pattern, and it is so simple that it can be understood by our 12 [28:10] and 13-year-old students, where we actually even have like a chart. [28:13] It's like a plug and play, like who is the liar? [28:15] What is the value that they're targeting in this society? [28:19] How are they claiming that Jews are destroying this value? [28:22] And then the last piece of it is new media, because it's always accelerated [28:25] through new media. And we do this through case studies. [28:27] And you see this long historical pattern, the first case study is from the year 40 [28:31] CE in Alexandria. The last case study is about the digital age and the Iranian [28:37] regime. We talk about the Durban conference in the last case study. [28:40] And you're sort of you see this pattern and you see how, like, for example, with [28:44] the case of Simon of Trent, this is a blood libel case from 1475 that this was [28:48] spread by the printing press. [28:50] But you also see how it was what people now call data poisoning. [28:55] It was controlled. It was actually just this one bishop in Trent who paid all [28:59] these influencers to publish, you know, woodcuts and poems and artwork and paid [29:04] people to preach about it and everything. [29:06] Like, it was really like a campaign that was run by this one person. [29:09] So I think not understand understanding the why is important. [29:13] So this goes to what you said about, look, what HonestReporting does is is [29:16] whack-a-mole. Right. I mean, that is your lane. [29:18] That's exactly your lane. Right. [29:19] It's like, you know, here's these, you know, here's these 10 things that were [29:23] reported that were outrageous. [29:24] And here's why they're outrageous. [29:25] And that is a very important thing to do, and someone needs to do it. [29:28] And I am very, very grateful that you and your colleagues are doing it. [29:31] And for many other people who are doing it as well, you've been at this for a long [29:35] time and do it very well. And I will say, I cite your work many times in the book, [29:41] because someone's doing it. [29:42] Ben: Thank you, it needs to be done [29:44] Dara: I think that the larger project is not... [29:48] The problem with the whack-a-mole [29:52] is that [29:54] when you're approaching this by just debunking a claim, these claims, and this [29:59] is not me invalidating what you're doing, I'm saying like for the average person [30:02] who's confronting this, rather than a person who has a whole research apparatus, [30:07] once you are confronting the claim, you are stepping into the defendant's box in a [30:12] bogus show trial from a tyrannical regime. [30:16] Right? I mean, it's like being on trial in a show trial in the Soviet Union, right? [30:20] Or in North Korea or something, right? [30:22] I mean, this is like you know, when I say you're not going to win, it's not just [30:26] because you're not going to win. [30:27] It's because the person who should be in the box is this tyrannical regime that's [30:32] spreading this lie. And so to me, the way to combat this is to turn everything [30:38] around onto the people who are benefiting from the lie. [30:44] Right? To me, that is the effective way is to sort of to ask like, you know, people [30:49] say like, oh, what's the most effective way to combat this, you know, people who [30:52] are, you know, claiming, you know, like whatever is the flavor of the week um you [30:58] know? And then, you know, my answer to that is not to say, oh, here's 10 reasons [31:03] why Israel's not committing genocide, Israel's not a colonialist state, whatever [31:07] the flavor of the week is, but to say, I can't believe you fell for it. [31:14] I can't believe you fell for it. [31:16] Like, you know, you seem like a smart, curious person. [31:17] I mean, and look, there's other ways that you approach that person, you know, [31:22] obviously like, you know, this person in your life, there are the sort of the, the [31:28] tried and tested way to do it is not by saying, here's 10 reasons why you're [31:31] wrong, but to say, to approach them with curiosity, you you know, because people [31:36] want to be heard, people want to be respected. [31:38] And I'm not saying strangers on the Internet. [31:40] I'm saying, like, you know, a person in your life who you want to maintain a [31:43] relationship with is not here's 10 reasons why you're wrong. [31:45] But to say, you know, I'm curious how you came to that conclusion. [31:51] You know, you seem interested in this topic. [31:53] You know, what Israeli sources are you reading to learn more? [31:58] Right. Like this is sort of like, you know, like, is it like it seems like it [32:02] seems like you're really passionate about this. [32:04] I'm wondering if you think it's possible that there might be a reason why you keep [32:09] seeing this on your phone. You know, you don't [32:12] pay for TikTok. You don't pay for Instagram. [32:16] That means you might be the product. [32:19] Who might be making money off of you seeing this? [32:22] Who might be benefiting from you seeing this material all day long? [32:28] You know, and I think that there's, you know, that's like when you start realizing [32:33] that the general agreement is not what you thought it was, [32:39] but the problem is like for the, for our children, the reality is like, and [32:45] this is where I get to the deeper content that I'm teaching in the Tell Institute [32:49] and also in the book is that being Jewish has always meant being [32:55] against the general agreement. It has always meant that because Jewish [33:00] civilization is an anti-tyrannical movement since ancient times. [33:06] We refuse to bow to tyrants. We only bow to God. [33:12] That pisses off tyrants. That pisses off tyrants. [33:17] So yes, we have been pissing off tyrants for a very, very long time. [33:21] And when you're raising Jewish children, you are raising them to understand this, [33:25] that you don't bow to tyrants. And that does mean that, yeah, everybody in your [33:29] social media feed is going to think you're wrong. [33:34] And you just would never make this mistake. [33:37] I mean, we're 0.2% of the world's population. [33:40] When you're 0.2% of the world's population, you don't think about [33:45] like, wow, it's like 50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong. [33:50] Actually, 50 million Frenchmen can be wrong. [33:53] They actually can't. [33:55] Ben: It I mean, it takes courage. [33:58] And there's there's there's a moment in in the book where you're talking [34:05] about the the people who are yelling these platitudes at you or challenging you in [34:10] in when you go speak at a campus. [34:12] And that when when you ask that question back or you go [34:18] even like one level deeper in in the whatever they're saying. [34:25] Yes. That it's it's a balloon that pops. [34:30] Yes. I think there are a lot of people who are scared that that's not what's going [34:35] to happen. How is that experience? [34:38] What is that experience been like for you in general? [34:41] I mean, like when you were faced with the person yelling free Palestine. [34:48] Dara: So, you know, it's more like there's the experience I typically will have is [34:53] like not just like people yelling. [34:55] Right. Because people yelling, you know, this is, you know, this is like what [34:59] people yelling do. Right. They're not interested in listening to you. [35:03] What sometimes will happen is like I'll be speaking somewhere and then, you know, [35:07] people will come with their keffiyehs and whatever. [35:09] And you know, they'll, um, sometimes they'll, sometimes they'll yell, sometimes [35:14] they'll hold up signs or something, but like more often they'll like go to ask a [35:18] question. Like they'll ask hostile questions during the Q A and I just answer [35:23] their question as if it's a good faith question. [35:27] I mean, they're generally not even a question. [35:29] They'll be like, you know, how can you say something, something, you know, when, you [35:35] know, Zionism is a form of genocide. [35:38] Right. You know, like, how can you say this, you know, when the, you know, the [35:42] UN, you know, just declared that, you know, this is a genocide. [35:45] And I'm like, I will just answer. [35:48] I'll be like, you know, you mentioned the UN. [35:51] Are we talking about the UN where there's 190 member states and the overwhelming [35:56] majority of them are authoritarian states where dissidents are put in prison? [36:01] Is that the UN we're talking about? [36:03] I just want to make sure we're all talking about the same UN. [36:06] I'm like, is that the UN where Iran was put on the committee for women's rights? [36:12] Yeah. When Iran executes women for not wearing a hijab? [36:16] I'm like, is that the UN we're talking about? [36:17] I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. [36:22] You know, or they'll be like, you know, something, something. [36:24] Zionism is a form of genocide. I'm like, you mentioned Zionism. [36:26] Let's talk about it. Right. And I'm like, you know, Zionism's a national movement [36:30] like all the other national movements that arose at exactly the same time. [36:34] I'm like, weird that there's no anti-Jordan movement. [36:38] Right. No anti-Pakistan movement. [36:41] I'm like, these are countries that were formed in exactly the same way. [36:43] You know, I mean, the Jordan expelled all the Jews from all the areas it conquered. [36:49] This is all the Jews. All the Jews. [36:52] How many Jews remained in any of those countries? [36:55] Zero. Zero. And I just say like, so, you know, this is an interesting conversation [37:00] and, you know, I see you're really interested in Zionism, you know, let's [37:06] learn more about it. And I always expect them to sort of come back at me with, you [37:11] know, but what about this? And what about this? [37:12] And what about this? Not once, not once. [37:16] And it took me a long time to figure out why. [37:19] And then I eventually realized I'm like wait a minute this is Zionism is genocide [37:22] is the only thing they know that's the beginning in the end. [37:24] Right, they have nothing. They have nothing. [37:28] And so, you know, when you say like other people are afraid, that's not what's going [37:32] to happen to them. So look, I am in an, I'm in a fortunate or privileged, so to [37:36] speak position in that I don't, I mean, what I realized, I realized this in [37:42] speaking to students that like, when, you know, when I am [37:48] have these people yelling at me at, you know, at these events and then I respond [37:52] with my response. [37:55] First of all, I'm the one holding the microphone, but second of all, the real [37:58] answer to the real difference between me, because often like then Jewish students [38:02] will come to me afterwards and be like, oh, look, you know, you just, you know, [38:05] this girl's been harassing us all semester and you [38:07] just destroyed her. I'm like, I didn't destroy her. [38:09] I just answered her question. You too could do this. [38:12] And then they're like, oh no, we don't know as much as you. [38:14] I'm like, you don't need a PhD to defeat an argument that's three words long. [38:19] And what they really needed was, as you say, courage, because what I realized is [38:23] the difference between me and them is that they have to live with this harasser and [38:27] I don't. Right. So when I say like, I'm in a privileged position, that's what I [38:31] mean. It's like, you know, I'm like parachuting into these places and then I [38:34] leave, like, I don't have to live with these people. [38:35] Right, so, you know, it's very, I think it isn't a very, I don't think it's fair to [38:39] compare what I'm doing to what other people might be doing in their own lives [38:44] and communities and workplaces and schools where they have to live with the people. [38:48] But what I would encourage those people to think about is there's a lot [38:54] of people who are on your side and you don't know about it because no one, [39:00] everyone's sitting there waiting for somebody to say something. [39:03] And you don't know how many people are on your side. [39:07] Like, yes, you will lose some supposed friends [39:09] and then you're going to gain a lot of new ones. [39:12] That's the piece that they don't see because they're too afraid to cross that [39:16] line. And it's like, but once you cross that line, you feel like there's this [39:21] amazing thing that happens where suddenly you're no longer afraid of these people. [39:25] And I mean, that's like the most liberating thing when, like, I mean, [39:28] especially for me, like, you know, it's also, this is also an advantage I have [39:32] over these students is like, I have four teenagers, like I'm not afraid of [39:38] teenagers, right you know, like what's, I mean, this is, this is not Hezbollah, [39:44] right? I mean, I would be, you know, there's a reason to be afraid of Hezbollah [39:46] there's not a reason to be afraid of like, girl in a keffiyeh at Loyola college or [39:51] whatever you know like you know I mean it's sort of there's this absurdity to it [39:58] and I'm like, why would I care what these teenagers are saying to like, why would I, [40:02] why would I be scared of these people? [40:04] Like, it just seems so ridiculous. [40:07] And so, you know, at that point, you start realizing that there's a lot of [40:13] things that when you put, what I say when you pop this balloon, you discover the [40:19] people who are on your side, because I will tell you something else that has [40:22] happened to me is that I've had a lot of, I've had a lot of readers for example, [40:25] from the Muslim community come to me. [40:27] Ben: Really? Okay. [40:28] Dara: Thank me for what I'm doing. [40:30] Yes. Thank me for what I'm doing. [40:31] I've spoken. Um I spoke to a Muslim American organization um this summer. [40:36] Um I now have, you know, I've been on podcasts for the Muslim community um great [40:43] because there's a lot of people like, well, so this is and because you can drive [40:47] a truck through this because it is [40:51] turning you can drive a truck through it because we are fortunate to not live in a [40:55] country where we're going to be thrown in prison for objecting to tyranny. [40:58] So I can give you one example. I remember I was going to go speak at a school and we [41:02] had the little pre-call and um you know, actually this, I wrote about this in the [41:07] book, and they asked me, you know, they're like, oh, you might want to be careful [41:10] about using the Z word in your talk because, you know, that might offend [41:14] people. And I'm like, should I also be concerned and avoid using the J word? [41:18] Because, you know, I don't want to offend people who hate Jews. [41:22] You know, I wouldn't want to offend people who hate Jews. [41:26] So I think you're right. Maybe I shouldn't use the J word in addition to not using [41:30] the Z word. And these people, they just look at me. [41:33] And then something really interesting happened, which was then one of these [41:36] people said, oh, no, no, no, you don't understand. [41:38] You know, we have Muslim students and Muslim faculty, so this is a very [41:41] sensitive issue. And then I just said, well, I don't see why. [41:45] I'm not sure I understand what you mean because I'm sure that your Muslim students [41:50] and faculty are not fans of federally designated [41:53] terrorist organizations that kill Muslims. [41:57] And I said, we're all like team anti-federally designated terrorist [42:03] organization. We'd hope. [42:06] Right. Right. And then they just look at you. [42:10] And at that point, you're like, well, because honestly, that's what this is. [42:14] Like to me, this is not about, you know, this is, first of all, it's certainly not [42:18] about Israel. I mean, and that was very obvious to me. [42:20] And I could give more examples of that. [42:22] Like when I was on this Harvard committee, you know, my favorite example of this is [42:26] just, I remember there was one point, um, this was in the fall of 2023, when the [42:31] students all did this, you know, walk out of class for a ceasefire in Gaza. [42:34] It was like national walkout and it wasn't just at Harvard, it was at other schools [42:38] as well. And you know, they came into all the big lecture courses with megaphones, [42:42] shouting long with the intifada, we're all going to walk out of class. [42:45] You know, we have to fight for a ceasefire in Gaza. [42:47] We're going to walk out of class for a ceasefire in Gaza. [42:49] The reason during the ceasefire, it was during the ceasefire in Gaza, right? [42:53] I was like Guys, I have great news for you. [42:54] It's like, they're not even interested in what's happening in the middle. [42:58] Like like, it's like zero interest in what's happening in the Middle East, [43:02] right? And it's happened more than once. [43:04] Like, there was that incident. There was also one, I think it was in early 2025, [43:08] during another ceasefire. There were protests about, you know, calling for a [43:11] ceasefire. I'm like, awesome news for you guys. [43:13] There's a ceasefire. There's no interest in the facts. [43:15] And the reality is there are a lot of people, like, most people are not fans of [43:20] tyrannical regimes. They're not. [43:25] Most people don't like being duped. [43:27] Most people don't like being used. [43:30] And most people are not interested in, you know, serving as a smokescreen for a [43:35] tyrannical regime or for, you know, these, you know, movements that are trying to, [43:39] you know, eliminate everyone's freedom. [43:41] And so, you know, once you take it in that direction, you know, we're really talking [43:46] about de-radicalization. [43:48] Ben: Mm hmm. [43:52] You, um you have some periods in the book when you talk [43:58] about going back to Harvard, having to be escorted by security in Harvard [44:05] Yard where he would spend 10, 10 years. [44:07] Um, and, uh you know, there, there is a grief that comes [44:13] through those sections. You say that you're angry. [44:16] Um are is it that the university has [44:22] kind of forgotten its ideals or that knowledge in general is, [44:28] you know, I worry that we're kind of slipping into a dark age. [44:33] Dara: Okay. Well, so look, I talk about this in the book because, [44:38] you know, when I was first on this committee at Harvard, it was just this [44:44] fire hose of incidents. And that was like, it was like the whack-a-mole experience, [44:50] right? Of we were meeting with the administration twice a week for hours. [44:56] And it was like every meeting was about, you know, whatever new outrageous thing [45:01] just happened in the last 48 hours. [45:03] And to be clear, and I've said this in other contexts, but, you know, and I don't [45:08] have to tell you or your listeners, but, you know, the idea that this was the way [45:13] this was presented in the media, that this was, you know, a whole battle about free [45:17] speech and, you know, protests and where do you draw the line? [45:20] Like a single student came to our committee complaining about, oh, I don't [45:25] like the slogan. What they came to us complaining about was I don't like having [45:30] my dorm room vandalized. I don't like being followed through the law school with [45:34] someone with a megaphone who's following me personally screaming at me. [45:38] Right. I don't like having someone spit in my face. [45:40] I don't like having my professor throw me out of class for being Israeli. [45:43] I don't like my professor canceling class so everyone can go to the anti-Israel [45:47] rally, writing a really long email on the class listserv about how it's incredibly [45:51] important for all of us to attend this anti-Israel rally. [45:55] By the way, I grade you. You know, I don't, I mean, this was the kind of things [46:00] that people were complaining about. [46:02] It was not like, you know, I object to this, you know, characterization of the [46:06] Israeli government. So, you know, the whole mythology that this was about free [46:11] speech rather than harassment of Jewish students was just outrageous. [46:14] But what happened was, you know, after this committee experience was over, I dug [46:20] deeper into this, and it wasn't my, I mean, I should say, like, you know, there [46:26] are many people working on this. [46:27] This was the Harvard Jewish Alumni Alliance put out an audit of everything [46:31] Harvard was teaching about Jews in Israel. [46:34] And then this was later corroborated by the university's own antisemitism task [46:39] force. And oh, my God, it's so damning. [46:41] Because to me, that is the real problem. [46:44] It's not about, oh, what do you do about these students who are expressing [46:47] themselves? They're teaching this stuff. [46:49] I mean, it was like, you know, they would have whole classes about, you know, Israel [46:53] as a settler colonialist state. [46:55] Like, that's the premise of the class, not, you know, let's discuss this. [47:00] They're teaching an antisemitic lie, which comes from the KGB, as the basis of a [47:05] course at Harvard. I'm like, what the heck are you doing? [47:07] I mean, there was, it just got more and more outrageous. [47:10] I mean, there's, you know, in the book, I walk through this. [47:12] I mean, and actually, Harvard was not as bad as some other places. [47:15] I mean, obviously, there's schools like Cornell and Georgetown that have campuses [47:20] in Qatar. I mean, it was laughable that these schools were going on about academic [47:24] freedom when literally they have campuses in Doha where, you know, the Qatari royal [47:28] family gets to censor the syllabi. [47:31] So, I mean, you know, this idea that we care about academic freedom is just, you [47:36] know, it was such a smokescreen. [47:37] So when you say about this, but yes, I saw what I came to see ultimately was that [47:43] this was sort of, often people will say, oh, antisemitism is a canary in the coal [47:47] mine. It's a warning that, you know, worse things are happening in your society. [47:50] I actually think that institutionally it's the opposite. [47:54] I think that it's institutionally antisemitism is the tail end of [48:00] like the collapse of your institution. [48:04] So I think it's like once this stuff starts happening so obviously, this is a [48:09] sign. It's not a sign worse is to come. [48:12] It's a sign of all the decay that has already happened. [48:15] So, and I mean, this is true in, it was true in universities, especially the way I [48:20] explored in the book is about the humanities and social sciences. [48:23] And I attribute this to this massive investment in STEM, you know, science, [48:29] technology, engineering, and math. [48:30] In the past 30 years, this was all like, you know, learn to code, all this kind of [48:33] stuff that was pushed in K to 12 schools, you know, which now all of a sudden it's [48:38] obsolete. Now, now no one, you know, all the people who spent all their time [48:40] learning how to code now, you know, or out of a job. [48:43] But meanwhile, you know, there was this massive, that was the prestige, that was [48:47] the priority. And there's this absolute neglect of the humanities and social [48:51] science. I mean, history, I know in my children's public elementary school, they [48:56] didn't even teach social studies every day. [48:59] It was like on a rotation, like gym and art. [49:02] Like they were doing it like a couple times a week. [49:05] So, I mean, it wasn't considered a core subject, right? [49:08] I mean, there's no state testing um and a lot of states don't even have testing. [49:12] And so they might have and they have testing and so they don't have testing in [49:15] social studies or history. They have testing in math and English. [49:19] And the thing about English is that it basically was just being taught to extract [49:23] information from a text, right? [49:26] That's what like sort of state standards testing. [49:28] It's not about rhetoric, right? [49:30] It's not about like, what is the use of irony, right? [49:32] What is the use of repetition? [49:34] Um, not about logical reasoning. [49:37] Um, you know, I remember my children, when they were younger, we had a book in the [49:42] house. It was like a picture book that was called the book of bad arguments. [49:46] Um, and it was like, it was logical fallacies, right? [49:49] But what taught in a way that kids could understand, you know, things like, uh yeah [49:53] you know, appeal to authority, false binary, um no true Scotsman. [49:59] You know, when you move the goalposts, you know, you say like, no Scotsman would [50:02] ever do that. And that a Scotsman is doing that. [50:04] And so you say, well, no, true Scotsman would ever do that, right? [50:06] I mean, it's like every one of those false arguments, the bad arguments, if you look [50:12] at something like the lie that, you know, that the Gaza war is a genocide, it's [50:18] every single one of those bad arguments. [50:20] Appeal to authority. Look, this International Association of genocide [50:25] Scholars says it's a genocide. I'm like, and the way you become a member is by [50:29] spending $30 and 20% of the members. [50:32] Register your dog. Right. And it's like, yeah. [50:36] And, you know, and it's like, you know, appeal to authority, right? [50:39] You know, no true Scotsman. It's like, well, let's make a more expansive version [50:42] of genocide so that it includes, you know, whatever I want it to include. [50:46] I mean, it's like every bad argument in that book, no one's teaching those [50:50] arguments, right? Like, no one's teaching, like, what makes something, like, how do [50:55] you weigh evidence, right? Like, what is a bad argument versus a good argument? [51:00] Right. Like what is, you know, like what is a straw man? [51:03] Also, like, you know, basic elements of rhetoric. [51:06] Right. Like this is rhetoric, like which is for, you know, for good or bad. [51:10] I mean, for anyone persuading somebody of a point of view, like, you know, how do [51:14] you people use how do you use repetition? [51:16] Right. You know, how do you use, you know, bringing somebody into your point of [51:19] view? How do you build that kind of how do you capture a reader's attention? [51:23] Right. I mean, I learned about this as a writer because I, you know, that's my job [51:26] as a writer is to capture people's attention. [51:29] That's a skill that you can learn. [51:31] And also once you learn it, you become kind of immune to it. [51:35] I mean, it's actually, it's kind of bad. [51:36] And that like, my family hates watching movies with me because I'm like, here we [51:41] go. It's the save the cat moment, right? [51:44] Like, look, we just showed the hero being nice to an animal and then it's in, right? [51:48] Like, you know, it's like, when you see this structure and you're a writer, it's [51:51] like, it's a little annoying, but like, um, but you are immune to these things. [51:56] We're not teaching those things. [51:58] Harvard was not teaching those things. [52:01] Harvard was not teaching those things. [52:02] Like there was this debasement of the humanities and the social sciences to the [52:07] degree where, you know, people in the humanities, you know, you could argue [52:12] different reasons, but, you know, the pivot to social advocacy was partly it was [52:17] a desperate grasp, you know, a grasp at relevance. [52:21] So, you know, there's been this absolute defunding of the humanities and, you know, [52:25] guess who is funding it? The Qatari royal family, right? [52:29] I mean, they're paying for all these area studies and they're paying for think [52:33] tanks. And, you know, I mean, because they understood that, you know, humanity, the [52:39] study of the humanities is where a society articulates its values. [52:43] And so, you know, they replaced it with their values instead of ours. [52:48] Ben: I talking about that, that how to argue. [52:52] She reminds me of my freshman year of college. [52:55] My first class, my was taught by my then advisor who gave us this [53:01] mimeographed paper, like how to argue. [53:04] And it was a joke. And it, you know, it had like use Latin words because that [53:09] proves that you speak Latin and your opponent doesn't. [53:11] And the very last thing was, if all else fails, [53:14] can compare your opponent to Hitler. [53:17] Dara: Oh, so it's like a prominent Godwin's law. [53:20] Ben: Right. Yeah. But that's everything now is comparing like the the argument of [53:24] genocide is essentially comparing Jews to Hitler. [53:27] And that's become it. And it's astounding that that. [53:30] So that's why I'm, you know, especially reading your book. [53:33] And it's scary. Like, where where are we going in terms of any sort of [53:39] understanding of knowledge and argument? [53:41] Dara: Um, so I mean, look, this is a larger issue, um, beyond the Jewish [53:47] community. What's to me is, you know, when you say we're entering the dark age, I [53:52] mean, this is the, this is the beauty of Jewish civilization. [53:56] Yeah. We've been here before. We've been in much worse. [54:01] Yeah, we've been in much worse. [54:03] Um, you know, we were the, you know, one of the only people who were teaching our [54:09] kids how to read when most people weren't. [54:12] We're going to probably be the only people teaching our kids how to read when most [54:15] people aren't in the future. [54:17] Ben: I was having this conversation with my [54:19] wife last night that we'll get through it. [54:21] Dara: Well, it's not just we'll get through it, but we have this, [54:26] we have the tools. And what to me, and this is part of what I'm doing in the Tell [54:30] Institute, is giving people these tools. [54:35] Giving people these tools. We have this toolkit in Jewish civilization to deal [54:41] with this. So, for example, you know, Jewish education, traditional Jewish [54:46] education is exactly preparing you in how to argue, right? [54:51] Like Jewish education isn't, you know, even, you know, traditional Jewish [54:54] education isn't a teacher talking at you. [54:57] It's chavruta, right? It's you with your learning partner studying together. [55:01] And it's only a good chavruta if your learning [55:04] partner doesn't agree with you, right? [55:06] There's a famous story from the Talmud about, you know, Rabbi Yochanan and Resh [55:11] Lakish, who were these two study, you know, these two sages who were, they're a [55:14] pair of sages, they're constantly arguing. [55:16] And then when Resh Lakish dies, Rabbi Yochanan is, you know, someone gives him a [55:21] new study partner and he's like, this guy's terrible. [55:23] He does disagree with me. He's like, how am I supposed to learn anything? [55:28] How am I supposed to learn anything? [55:30] You know, this was something that happens in a lot of Yiddish literature. [55:34] There's this sort of story that comes up over and over again when people leave the [55:37] traditional world and they go into, you know, the wider European society. [55:42] And often one of their experiences they talk about is going into a library, like a [55:47] library in a, you know, a Western European city, and they see something they have [55:52] never seen before, which is people reading silently. [55:56] Because in traditional Jewish communities, reading was a communal experience where [56:02] you never would sit and read to yourself. [56:05] You would always be reading out loud and debating with somebody. [56:08] And these people, like they all write about, they're like, what are these people [56:12] doing? Sitting quietly, looking at books, like they're baffled by this. [56:16] So it's like, you know, like we have the tools tools to, you know, and, and even [56:21] this sort of whole idea of, you know, the law that doesn't come from a king, right? [56:26] Which is what the Torah is right the law that doesn't come from a king and this is [56:32] how we teach it you know in the Tell Institute, we designed this to be taught [56:34] to public school students. I mean, if I was teaching in a religious context, you [56:37] can talk about the way we obviously regard this as a covenant with God. [56:43] But even outside of a religious context, this is a radical idea that there are laws [56:48] that are, it's not Hammurabi's code, [56:52] right? Like that the leaders have to follow the laws too, right? [56:58] I mean, and these are laws, these are [56:59] ideas that influence the American founders. [57:01] Ben: I was going to say, it is such a democratic ideal. [57:04] Dara: Yes, exactly. I mean, or, you know, the story, like what we call in our [57:08] curriculum, the story of freedom, right? [57:10] I mean, the Pesach story, the Passover story from, you know, the story. [57:14] This is a very unusual story in the ancient world because, you know, most [57:19] stories are like, I know, you know, a lot of people this summer, past summer watched [57:22] the movie the Odyssey, you know, based on, you know, if you think about Homer's epic [57:26] the Odyssey, it's about, you know, the king coming home and taking his rightful [57:31] place. Place in the palace, restoring his power. [57:35] Like, the Passover story is about burning down the palace, right? [57:40] It's basically about overturning this earthly king, refusing to bow to the king, [57:47] refusing to bow to tyrants. And this is the ethos we need to teach people. [57:53] And part of that is the ethos. We're very fortunate in the United states that that's [57:57] part of this country's ethos as well. [58:03] So, you know, is this, is this fixable, so to speak? [58:06] The answer is yes. Yeah, this is fixable. [58:09] I mean, I think that there's, look, I write in the book also about AI. [58:12] Um I write about this data poisoning plot um to poison Wikipedia and Reddit with [58:18] antisemitic um antisemitic lies. [58:20] Um, you know, so there is a will to stop this, right? [58:26] I mean, most Americans don't want their information ecosystem taken over [58:32] by tyrannical regimes overseas and our foreign adversaries. [58:36] Like, most Americans don't want that. [58:39] And if they understood the depth to which that was happening, I think they'd be [58:43] appalled. We need to tell them. [58:47] Ben: When you do that, what has the reception been like? [58:50] I mean, you've testified in front of Congress, but what is the reception [58:55] to your experience? [59:02] Dara: I mean, people are starting to wake up to this. [59:06] I do think people are starting to wake up to this because, you know, when you start [59:09] having overwhelming evidence of an organized eliminationist [59:15] hate campaign. [59:19] And you sort of, you know, it is possible to connect the dots here and see where [59:23] the, where some of the sources of this are coming from. [59:26] And so, look, I'm not, I'm not claiming that like everything, you know, everything [59:31] is due to like, you know, foreign influence. [59:34] Obviously that's not true. Obviously you have a lot of people in this country who [59:38] are, uh for their own reasons, are propagating all kinds of hate movements. [59:42] Um, but there is absolutely a synergy between this and opportunistic foreign [59:48] actors. And I think that people don't like to be fooled. [59:54] So in terms of like how people receive this, when I, when I put out this, this [60:00] idea, there's sort of a few different levels of people, right? [60:04] There's people who understand, who recognize that, that this is this [60:10] overwhelmingly organized hate movement or basically, you know, this is like people [60:13] in your organization who are basically sort of trying to sound the alarm about [60:16] this and expose the lies, right? [60:19] Because that's the problem. It's like, you know, as I said, fighting hatred requires [60:22] empathy and I'm not discount I mean, obviously we all need empathy, right? [60:26] I mean, this is, I'm not saying like, you know, stop being um you know, we all need [60:30] empathy, but fighting lies requires a different strategy, which is exposure. [60:35] So exposure is the first step. Um, you do have to do it over and over again, as your [60:41] organization knows well. [60:45] Um, you do have to sort of continuously do this. [60:48] It's possible to de-radicalize people, you know, what's a lot easier is pre-bunking. [60:54] Ben: Yeah. Yeah. You talk about that. [60:56] Dara: Yes. So this is something, this is one of the reasons why we're building this [60:59] at the Tell, like this, our program for the Jewish community is at the Bar and Bat [61:03] Mitzvah level, because, you know, before students are completely saturated with [61:07] this, because it is this, there's a lot of research that's been shown that [61:14] it's like pre-bunking a lie is much easier [61:16] than debunking a lie, meaning that you sort of [61:21] alert people that they're going to be encountering this attempt to manipulate [61:25] them, and then they are prepared, right? [61:29] It's like a flu vaccine where you get a little bit of the flu and then you are [61:33] prepared, right? [61:34] Like when people understand they are prey for people who are going to be [61:40] manipulating them. It is very empowering. [61:43] It is very empowering to be able to identify, you know, these [61:49] lies. And so, you know, what is the result of this? [61:54] Like in terms of like the response I get, I will tell you that like school programs [61:58] that we've already done, so we have already done pilots in public schools. [62:02] The main response we have gotten has been just like, wow, who knew? [62:06] This is amazing. Like people are fascinated by this. [62:09] And while I'll tell you what they're fascinated by is not just like, you know, [62:12] this sort of pattern of antisemitism, what they're fascinated by is the longevity of [62:16] the Jewish people and how that was accomplished. [62:19] That is what the students and the teachers are fascinated by. [62:23] Like that's the first thing people respond. [62:25] I'm like, wow, this has been around for 3,000 years? [62:28] And it's not just this magical thing that Jewish civilization has been around for [62:34] 3,000 years. It's choices. [62:37] It's choices that the Jewish community made at different points, which are very [62:41] high-cost choices. And when I say high-cost, I don't just mean it's [62:45] expensive to send your kid to Jewish school. [62:47] It is. But also, these are high-cost choices because it requires not getting [62:53] the social validation of everyone agreeing with you. [62:56] You know, you are essentially training people in curiosity and courage. [63:01] Ben: Yeah. You, uh, you write [63:07] that you know, this fear, even though I'm, uh, even though I'm the [63:13] antisemitism Lorax, every time I write about this, I'm still absolutely [63:18] terrified. Even now, what does that, what does that look like for you? [63:22] And, and you know, what does it feel like the night before you have to go out to do [63:27] some speaking engagement, [63:29] Dara: Like dread, a lot of dread, a lot of, I would rather do something else. [63:37] Um, you know, why, why am I doing this with my [63:39] life there's so many other things I could be doing. [63:43] Um, but also just, you know, constantly self-doubting self-checking like, [63:49] did I express this well enough? [63:51] You know was this you know could this be misinterpreted double checking myself [63:57] 20,000 times? And then I'm like, you know what? [63:59] These haters aren't doing that. [64:00] They're not sitting there being like, oh, you know could that tweet be taken the [64:04] wrong way? Spending 10 seconds thinking about that. [64:08] Right. They're like, they're not like, oh, if I wear this keffiyeh will people [64:13] associate me with people who have been shooting Palestinians in the street, [64:20] the way Hamas has been executing people. [64:23] Like maybe this, you know, I don't want, you know, I support, you know, Palestinian [64:28] rights and dignity, but I don't want people to associate me with a regime [64:31] that's shooting Palestinians in the street. [64:33] No one's thinking that don't think that for a second. [64:36] End I'm still doing that. I'm still sitting here being like, well, you know, [64:40] what what would my friend in this organization think? [64:42] What would somebody else think? [64:43] We would this is idiocy. I'm still, even I, if even I am feeling this [64:50] way still, I mean, you see how difficult this is to overcome. [64:57] You see how incredibly difficult it is. It is absolutely. [65:00] But like, yes, dread a sense of dread and a feeling like, yeah, I would rather do [65:06] something else. Like we read on Yom Kippur, the book of Jonah, about the [65:11] prophet Jonah, and he's told to go prophesy to Nineveh and tell the people of [65:17] Nineveh that they have to repent or they're said he's going to be destroyed. [65:19] And his response is to skip town. [65:24] Yeah, he hops on a boat to go to somewhere in the opposite direction. [65:28] I'm like, I wouldn't mind hopping on a boat and going to Tarshish. [65:33] You know, like I kind of I get it. [65:34] But then you end up in the then you end up getting eaten by a whale. [65:37] So, I mean, like the realization is that, like, you know, you don't. [65:44] Yes, you have a choice. Like, I could just never do this. [65:49] But the person you have to live with for your whole life is yourself. [65:53] Ben: And you write about the thousands of grateful people who are waiting for you to [65:58] say these things discovered. So like this is what people who haven't done this yet [66:01] don't know is how many people they're going to find out were on their side and [66:07] just didn't want to say anything. [66:11] Dara: Yeah. I mean, this is like this emperor has no clothes situation and we're [66:15] all just like, you know, waiting for somebody to say something, you know, it's [66:19] like, yeah, like you can look around and realize like, yeah, that person has to be [66:23] you. I want to say something about um someone who I've, I've been, I feel [66:29] blessed to have gotten to know and maybe you've even, I don't know if you know a [66:32] woman named Anila Ali. [66:33] Ben: I'm not, no, I don't. [66:35] Dara: Okay. So she is, um she's the leader of a group called AMWEC it's a, it's an [66:42] American Muslim organization. Um, and I was fortunate to meet her. [66:48] I, I spoke at a conference that her group was leading. [66:52] And this group leads trips to Israel for Muslim American leaders [66:58] before and after October 7th. It's not in partnership with some Jewish group. [67:03] It's just them. It's just them. [67:06] And I met these people at this conference. [67:10] And I will tell you that they were people talking about their experiences on this [67:16] trip and coming back to their communities. [67:18] And and the reason I'm mentioning this in this context is that they had put out a [67:23] little book of testimonials from people who had been on this trip of their [67:27] experiences, you know, these Muslim leaders and what they had experienced on [67:30] this trip, on their trips to Israel. [67:31] This book was dedicated to the memory of Imtiaz Mir, who was a [67:37] Pakistani journalist who had been on one of these trips [67:42] and then was assassinated and killed in [67:48] Pakistan for having gone on this trip. [67:56] When you hear something like that, and then you hear from somebody who's like, [67:59] oh, I don't want to post, you know, I don't want to like, you know, say [68:02] something to my teacher's union because, you know, people are going to hate me. [68:10] We have Muslim allies who literally are risking their lives. [68:16] They're literally risking their lives. [68:18] Ben: Uh I mean, you have a moment in your book where shortly after October 8th or [68:23] October 7th, rather you're, you're writing a piece about pogroms and rapes that [68:29] happened during the pogroms. And, and yeah and as, as you say, you know, [68:33] understandably, a fact checker is checking this, which we should all hope for that, [68:40] that these mag, I started as a fact checker in magazines. [68:43] So like, I, I deeply respect that. [68:46] Whereas at the same time, the al-Ahli hospital, uh, incident happens. [68:53] Dara: Yeah. Same week I was writing this piece. [68:55] It was a, I was writing an op-ed for the New York times and it was, you know, right [69:00] after October 7th. And it was putting, you know, it was sort of giving this history [69:04] of this, these attacks in the, you know, in from Jewish history. [69:07] And yeah, as I say, there was a, you know, a friendly fact checker who needed to see [69:13] my evidence that there had been gang rapes during the, you know, Russian Civil War [69:18] pogroms in 1921. And I'm, you know, diligently providing her all the testimony [69:24] from the court records from those from that time. [69:27] And literally the same week, they run a banner headline about how, you know, the [69:33] Israelis, you know, bombed a hospital and killed 500 people, which did not happen. [69:38] Ben: Right. And took days and days to correct. [69:42] Dara: Yes. Exactly. I mean, it's like, but you know, meanwhile, it's like, I have to [69:47] prove that literally a pogrom over a hundred years ago happened, but the [69:52] spokespeople for Hamas are taken at their word. [69:55] They are taken at their word. [69:57] Ben: It's more than bias. [69:59] Dara: Yeah. We have bought into a lie. [70:05] We have bought into a lie and that was exactly, I mean, and this is sort of, in a [70:10] sense, you keep participating in this lie, you're forced to, right? [70:14] And this is what, you know, as you say, every time you have to, like, go after the [70:19] people who are telling these lies, [70:22] you know, that then takes up all of your time and energy. [70:27] Whereas what really has to happen is to go after the liars [70:34] and ask this question, who is benefiting from this lie? [70:38] Who is benefiting? [70:42] From blasting these lies at our society. [70:46] And it's a really interesting question that not a lot of people are asking. [70:51] Ben: Right. I mean, you talk about that, too, that antisemitism is something that [70:57] you use to propel your political career, whatever you want to kind of [71:03] do to get ahead. [71:05] Dara: There's a benefit, exactly. [71:07] Ben: Yeah. The benefit. The Mamdani administration, not to be too subtle with [71:13] that transition, has on the 29th release this [71:19] whole plan about antisemitism. It says nothing about anti-Zionism, nothing about [71:25] the IHRA definition of antisemitism. [71:29] I mean, but it's something. Should we be [71:31] satisfied with these breadcrumbs? Is it something? [71:34] Dara: Wait, how is it something? [71:35] I mean, they gave you money. I mean, I'm reminded of when, you know, NYU was going [71:41] to respond to all this by opening a center for the study of antisemitism. [71:44] And I remember wondering, like, is it just going to be a big mirror that we put in [71:49] Washington Square Park? Right. Like there's not a lot of introspection going [71:54] on here. Not a lot of introspection. [71:58] You know, this is an old Soviet method. [72:01] Right. You know, we are against antisemitism and in favor of anti-Zionism. [72:06] This slogan, anti-Zionism is not antisemitism, is a KGB slogan. [72:11] It is a KGB slogan. [72:15] It's like, why are people falling for this? [72:17] Why are people falling for this? [72:20] And, you know, one answer is, we've never taught anyone [72:26] about this, is one answer. This is a longer term answer, to it's not really an [72:31] answer to your immediate question, what do you do with this? [72:33] But, you know, I it's the the sociologist Shaul Kelner at Vanderbilt has made this [72:39] point where he says that, you know, the you know community has invested a [72:46] lot, resources, money, time, effort in educating people about the Holocaust. [72:50] So, you know, you're now at the point, you know, and and look, I'm not making an [72:54] argument against Holocaust education, especially in this era of Holocaust [72:58] denial. I want to be really clear about that for your listeners. [73:02] He makes the point that, you know, people recognize those things from the Holocaust [73:08] because they've learned about them. [73:09] Like, most people, when they see a swastika, know that it means killing Jews, [73:14] right? And they know that that's bad. [73:16] He says, imagine if we had spent five minutes of all of the hours we spent [73:21] teaching people about the Holocaust, teaching people about Soviet anti-Zionism [73:26] and anti-Zionism in the Arab world. [73:32] And how this emptied the entire Arab world of its Jews, how it was used to persecute [73:38] Soviet Jews mercilessly for decades, how it destroyed Jewish communities in the [73:44] Eastern Bloc countries. [73:45] You know, it's like the persecution of the anti-Zionist campaign against Polish Jews [73:49] in 1916, which like forced Polish Jews out of their jobs. [73:55] How there has never been a society that has taken on, never been a government that [74:00] has taken on anti-Zionism as its policy that hasn't emptied itself of its Jews and [74:06] persecuted its Jews. It's never happened. [74:09] And he's like, and all of the slogans, you know, so people recognize these like, you [74:14] know, racist slogans of the Nazi regime. [74:17] They recognize the symbolism of the Nazi regime. [74:20] If we had spent five minutes teaching people about Zionism is racism, [74:27] Zionism is genocide, Zionism is colonialism, Zionism is apartheid, Zionism [74:30] is Nazism, Zionism is terrorism, all of these slogans that were used by these [74:34] regimes to persecute their Jewish populations, [74:39] people would have recognized it in the same way that, you know, people recognize, [74:44] like, swastika is bad. [74:46] You know, Nazi slogans are bad. [74:48] Like, yes, this is an anti-Jewish ideology that's being [74:54] used to destroy Jewish communities. [74:58] Why the hell are we allowing it in New York? [75:01] Why the hell are we allowing it in New York? [75:03] On what planet are you protecting Jews from antisemitism? [75:10] Where you're saying that it's actually, you're not antisemitic because you only [75:14] want, you're only okay, you don't mind if half the world's Jews die. [75:20] That's, I mean also [75:23] there are a lot of Jews in New York who are Israeli Americans. [75:29] That's a big proportion of the Jews in New York. [75:32] You know, discriminating against people for [75:34] their national origin is against civil rights [75:38] so, I mean, it's like, yeah, what do you do with this? [75:41] You reject it. You call it. You know, what do you think? [75:46] Oh, it's something. No, it's not. [75:49] In what way is it something? We're giving funding for what? [75:53] For protection of Jewish institutions? [75:56] Isn't that the job of the cops? [75:58] Right. Is that not the job of the cops? [76:00] I'm confused. Like, were the cops not already doing that? I don't really get it. [76:07] I don't really get it. Yeah, you reject it. [76:12] Because what in the world are you doing? [76:16] Like, this is, like, I wouldn't dignify this with acceptance. [76:23] You're adopting an ideology that has persecuted Jews for a hundred years. [76:30] And then you're going to slap a statement online? [76:35] What the heck are you doing? [76:40] Ben: So how do we teach that? How do we get that across? [76:44] I know you have been critical of Holocaust education, but also, you know, as you [76:49] just said, it is absolutely necessary in this world of conspiracy theories. [76:55] What are you doing and how do we get this stuff across? [77:00] Dara: Yes. So look, at the Tell Institute, we have our program. [77:05] It's not like a year-long thing. [77:08] It's eight lessons that a 13-year-old can understand. [77:11] It's eight lessons. It's a crash course. [77:16] It is currently designed for, we have a version that's for public high schools. [77:20] We have a version for, as I said, for within the Jewish community. [77:24] Basically, it's the same content, but honestly, it's just framed a little bit [77:27] differently. Um we are we've had a lot of requests and demand for other [77:33] versions of this to deliver it, and so and we're working on that, but this is what [77:37] we have at the moment. Um, the way we've structured this is around it is grounded [77:42] in the ideas of Jewish civilization, because we do not believe that you can [77:46] understand antisemitism without understanding the content of Jewish [77:50] civilization, because antisemitism is actually a [77:53] reaction to the content of Jewish civilization. [77:56] So we ground it first in the idea of who are Jews, because that is something that [78:02] none of these you know no one is ever teaching. [78:03] Like you know you can go learn about the Holocaust at school. [78:05] You will never learn who are Jews. [78:07] Um you know for example, people think Jews are a religion. [78:10] Jews aren't a religion. Jews have a religion. [78:12] But Jews are actually a category a social category that doesn't you know that's very [78:19] uncommon in the modern world. It's very common in the ancient world. [78:22] Jews are a joinable tribal group with a shared history, homeland, and culture. [78:25] And that was a sentence in English, in Hebrew, it's one word, it's two letters [78:29] long, am. That's who Jews are, they're Am Yisrael. [78:32] So until you understand that category, nothing else makes sense, because you're [78:35] trying to fit everything into paradigms that were made by empires. [78:39] So, and ultimately what Jewish civilization is, is this tiny [78:43] countercultural minority that refuses to succumb to empires and refuses to bow to [78:49] tyrants. And that pisses off empires, and it pisses off tyrants. [78:54] And so ultimately, and we present these groundbreaking ideas of Jewish [78:58] civilization and how they've shaped world history. [79:00] So this is an impact way beyond the Jewish community. [79:03] Obviously, you don't have Christianity and Islam without Judaism. [79:06] You know, there's obviously, it inspires the American founders. [79:10] And we talk about like sort of these core ideas of Jewish civilization. [79:13] Um you know and you know things like you know monotheism, which we think of as a [79:19] spiritual idea, but it's actually, in the ancient world, almost more like a [79:22] political idea. Because if you think about a society like Ancient Egypt, they've got [79:27] lots of gods. One of them's the dictator. [79:29] So if the Jews aren't bowing to other gods, they're not bowing to the Pharaoh. [79:33] Right, they're not worshiping the Roman emperor. [79:36] So you know that is a statement of not bowing to tyrants. [79:39] Um you know we talk about the idea of the laws that don't come from the king. [79:44] We talk about the interpretive tradition, the rabbinic tradition, where it's all [79:48] about debating the meaning of the law. [79:50] There's a culture of civil discourse, debate, and dissent. [79:52] We talk about the story of freedom. [79:54] So we grounded in that. Then we introduced this idea of the big lie, how societies [80:00] responded to these ideas. They were perceived as a threat by [80:06] societies that need everyone to agree, by societies that can't tolerate dissent. [80:12] The whole purpose here is pattern recognition for students. [80:16] So we then take them through these case studies, which I've already discussed, and [80:21] then we bring them back to the survival and resilience of Jewish civilization. [80:28] How was it, not just, not why, but how was it possible for Jews to survive [80:34] for thousands of years? What were the choices that Jewish communities made, the [80:38] commitments that Jewish communities made. [80:41] And these are things like literacy, right? [80:44] Things like community, not just community, like you need 10 people to pray, not just [80:49] like your local synagogue community, but also connections between Jewish [80:52] communities across long distances, right? [80:54] I mean, that there were, you know, when there was a community in the land of [80:58] Israel and a community in Babylonia, that they had messengers who were going back [81:01] and forth, right, when Maimonides is sitting in Egypt, he is answering letters [81:05] from scholars in who are leaders of the communities in France and in Yemen. [81:09] Right I mean this is like even in pre-modern period, when you would think it [81:12] was impossible. You know this constant contact with people in the land of Israel, [81:16] the fact that the land of Israel is the only place on earth where where Jews have [81:21] can have lived continuously. It is the only place on earth where Jews have always [81:25] lived, is the land of Israel. Just these basic facts are [81:32] choices. They're choices. And so we teach about that kind of choices and resilience. [81:39] And ultimately, this becomes a story which students and teachers find inspiring. [81:43] And it's sort of, it becomes, and it wasn't really intended that way. [81:46] It really just is intended as we're learning about this civilization. [81:50] But what has surprised me is that people have found it to be something that's [81:54] inspiring and empowering, not even just Jewish students and teachers, but [81:57] non-Jewish students and teachers have found it inspiring and empowering because [82:00] it shows that, yeah, you don't have to bow to tyrants. [82:02] That is something that's really important for everyone to know. [82:05] So in terms of like not just teaching about the Holocaust, to me, the amazing [82:10] story is not about this litany of horror. [82:14] It's not about, you know, what's amazing about Jewish history is not the litany of [82:18] horror, because unfortunately, that's the least interesting thing about Jewish [82:21] history. There's no group in human history that hasn't, you know, gone through [82:25] persecutions and displacements and things like that. [82:28] What's astounding about Jewish history is this, how Jewish communities made [82:35] these choices to maintain this counterculture, this distinctive [82:38] civilization against these empires that sought to wipe them out. [82:44] Ben: Yeah. Ben M. Freeman, who writes for us and has been on the pod before, has [82:49] said that, you know, his big line was that, you know, the greatest achievement [82:54] of the Jewish people isn't Israel the greatest achievement of the Jewish people [82:57] is the Jewish people. And at the end of your book, in the closing pages, and I [83:03] don't want to give away the ending necessarily, but you talk about, you know, [83:06] talking to your children, and it really, I mean, I got that you [83:13] were talking about the Shema, and, you know, passing these words down, teaching [83:18] our children that that is kind of the final solution. [83:22] And, yeah, I mean, I don't know if this is a question so much as just an [83:26] observation, but that really, you know, it was it was you landed the plane, [83:33] if you will. [83:35] Dara: I mean, with one wing broken and with the people who tried to stab you [83:41] lying on the floor. But, yes. [83:44] Ben: Yeah, I mean, but that that is the we endure, I [83:50] guess, is the takeaway. [83:51] Dara: But it's not just endurance, right? [83:53] It's that every single person today who's part of this community is a Jew by [83:59] choice. In that every person has made this decision, this countercultural [84:06] decision not to bow to tyrants, not to assimilate into empires, and to maintain [84:12] this really amazing civilization. [84:18] I mean, you know, to me, it's like, there's also like, you know, the value [84:21] proposition of being Jewish [84:26] is astounding, right? I mean, this, the name Jews, it [84:31] comes from the word for gratitude. [84:34] We are the people who are grateful to God. [84:37] And the name Israel comes from, we are the people who wrestle with God. [84:45] I mean, is there any better description of what [84:48] it means to be a human being for anyone on earth? [84:52] This wrestling and gratitude. [84:56] And, you know, I think that in the modern context, in our modern world, we're often [85:02] dissociated from the past and the future. [85:07] And there is this incredible power, and this is what I'm, I'm depicting this in [85:14] the book, of being part of what I call this love story, [85:19] right? Where you are connected to the past and also to the future. [85:25] You know, and you're connected through people, you know, um through our, you [85:29] know, or through our parents and teachers, through our students and children. [85:32] But that you are part of this story [85:41] that you get to keep reading and writing this story. [85:43] And I saw, like, I saw how that was absent from people. [85:47] Honestly, like I saw this in, I write about this in the book. [85:49] Like, there was a point where, you know, where I stopped being afraid of these [85:53] teenagers who were heckling me at these colleges. [85:56] And I started, as I put it in the book, I started feeling almost motherly toward [86:00] them, you know, because as a mother of four teenagers, I understand, you know, I [86:05] come to them as a mother [86:07] and I started feeling, instead of being afraid of them, I felt sorry for them. [86:12] Because I would see like, you know, the sort of proverbial white girl in a [86:16] keffiyeh, you know, and they're like chanting free, free Palestine. [86:19] And I just remember thinking like, [86:22] it's sad that you don't have something from your own culture to wear [86:27] you don't have like a place where you can go daily or weekly to chant meaningful [86:32] words that make you feel like you're participating in something bigger than [86:36] yourself. My kids do that every week at Shabbos, right? [86:41] Like, you know, like, like if you, you know, if they want to chant meaningful [86:46] words that make them feel connected to a bigger story, you know, they're doing that [86:51] all the time. Right? Like, you know, we have things from our own culture to wear. [86:57] Yeah. And it's like, you don't. [86:59] And it's like, there's this, this gaping absence that people want, people want to [87:05] be part of a larger community. [87:07] They want to, you know, they want to be in service of others. [87:14] And they don't have the way to do that, or they have not found a community that [87:20] is telling them a story that they can be a part of. [87:24] This is what Jews have been doing for thousands of years. [87:31] This is what Jews have been doing for thousands of years, is finding, is, you [87:36] know, this is a technology for finding the holiness in daily life. [87:40] You know, that's what, you know, you said like the greatest achievement of the [87:43] Jewish people is the Jewish people. [87:44] I mean, what has held together the Jewish people? [87:50] I mean, this is the Torah, right? [87:57] This is, you know, and whether you're a quote religious person or not, right? [88:02] You are part of this story. I mean, I call this, you know, a love story between the [88:08] Jewish people and their God. [88:12] And every person who's Jewish who's alive today is descended from someone who made [88:16] this incredibly countercultural choice, right? [88:19] They decided to be part of this, even when the millions of people around them told [88:24] them they were wrong. They still said, this is who I am. [88:32] Ben: Dara Horn, thank you so much for joining us today. [88:35] Dara: Thank you for having me. [88:42] Ben: Near the end, I tried to sum all of this up as we endure, and Dara wouldn't [88:46] let me have it. Enduring is something that happens to you. [88:50] What she was describing is something you do, over and over, at a cost, usually [88:56] while everyone around you is telling you you're wrong. [88:58] Every Jew alive today is here because somebody, somewhere, along the line, was [89:05] offered an easier way out and turned it down. [89:09] The literacy, the arguing, the letters carried between communities hundreds of [89:14] miles apart. The holidays. None of it just happened. [89:18] Somebody chose it. And then their kids did. [89:21] And there was a turn in this conversation I didn't see coming. [89:26] The students in keffiyehs chanting at her talks, she stopped being afraid of them. [89:31] And she feels sorry for them. What they're reaching for is somewhere to belong. [89:36] Words that mean something, a story bigger than they are. [89:40] And that's the thing Jews have been handing down the whole time. [89:43] We don't have to argue our way out of being hated. [89:47] We have the thing people actually want. [89:50] If this one gave you something to argue about at your own table, do me a favor and [89:55] leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. [89:57] It's genuinely the thing that helps people find the show. [90:01] Subscribe on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify so you don't miss the next show. [90:06] And follow @HonestReporting on X, TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook for all the work [90:12] behind these conversations. Dara's new book is The Final Solution to the Jewish [90:17] Question: A Love Story for the Living, and it's out now everywhere you get books. [90:22] And if you haven't read People Love Dead Jews, start there. [90:26] I'm Ben Chertoff. This is The Honest Take. [90:29] And we'll see you next time.
